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Warren Turnbull Offline
#81 Posted : Sunday, 6 January 2019 7:32:40 PM(UTC)
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There were also many that considered drums superior on unsealed roads, theory being not much gets into them.

I cannot confirm if this is true but have had a few people say it to me over the years.

As Byron said, options game, many HK Kingswoods that i saw were 186, disc, heater auto. Holden allowed you to choose the options, but they also pre ordered a lot of cars because they knew what was able to sell off the showroom floor.

The bread and butter model being Kingswood was kept nice and simple, a lot of people did not trust all these new "things". Back in the 70s and 80s a lot complained about the new cars having more features because "more can go wrong". I put power steering on my HZ Kingswood that my father in law purchased new, he drove it and could not believe how much better it was to drive, he asked why the salesman did not offer it, my response was "you were buying a Kingswood and you would have told him you have armstrong power steering". He conceded that that was his attitude back then.

The basic car buyer is after a basic car, we car enthusiasts look at them differently. For all their faults back in the 60s to mid 80s, the majority of cars sold here were bread and butter Holden/Commodore, Falcon and Valiant, 6 cylinder "shitboxes".

But there are also some well opted cars that turn up, for those who wanted to play the game and order what they needed. My dad's HQ wagon was 253, trimatic, 3.55 lsd, 6" rims, super lift shocks, head restraints (1971 model) sports dash, black cloth trim.
HK1837 Offline
#82 Posted : Sunday, 6 January 2019 9:02:04 PM(UTC)
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Just on the retail vs stock order vehicles I have owned two retail order Holdens that I know of (others I suspect were but no evidence). This does show you the delays if you ordered rather than bought from stock or off the schedule.

First example is my HJ Premier. Ordered right at HJ release. There must have been dozens and dozens of HJ Premiers already built or in the schedule being built or to be built over the next 6 weeks. But the buyer wanted a car that GMH would never have built for stock: 5.0L, LSD, buckets, console shift, sports dash, Sepia metallic (Group 3), power windows, air, steer, 6” rims, power antenna, heated rear window. The car wasn’t completed until late February 1975. Funny thing is GMH made sure it was complianced 12/74, possibly to avoid the expense of replacing the carby, fuel tank and fitting a canister and vapour line.

The other car I ordered myself. I went in to order a new VY SS ute in December 2002. I wanted a standard manual SS in white but with black leather trim. I was buying at National Fleet at the time, it was like $35k drive away with towbar. They tried to sell me a stock vehicle, a red auto for something like $34k or cars from other dealers including a white manual with blue leather, plus some scheduled cars. But I was happy to wait. Took until May 2003 for it to be delivered.

Edited by user Monday, 7 January 2019 10:18:06 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Warren Turnbull Offline
#83 Posted : Monday, 7 January 2019 9:38:49 AM(UTC)
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A friend of mine wanted a HJ Kingswood, 308, auto, gts dash, he ended up with a stock order with all of those options plus bucket seats and T bar, they did not charge for him for the buckets and t bar, he also had to settle for light blue, not sure what colour he wanted. Car still exists, his son in law owns it now.

There were also lots of HJ V8s, know another fellow he went in to buy a 6 cylinder HJ Kingswood, walked out with an off the showroom floor V8. Not too sure of the other options.

Warren
HK1837 Offline
#84 Posted : Monday, 7 January 2019 10:26:02 AM(UTC)
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Another one we have discussed here before, I know of a guy who has a yellow HJ Kingswood Sandman ute. His family owned a GMH dealership but no matter what his Grandfather did he could not order a HJ Kingswood ute in 5.0L auto with console shift, could only get it column shift. Another large dealer took the exact car but XX7 optioned out of GMH or dealer stock (possibly their own stock), and swapped the walk-off front over in the same colour off another HJ Kingswood of some sort. Then fitted accessory Kingswood side moulds to the doors and quarters, plus sprayed yellow over the black sills and black beaver. It must have already had the Sandman stripes on it as they left the tailgate decal on. And voila, his grandfather had an Absinth Yellow HJ Kingswood ute optioned with console shift, buckets, sports dash and rally rims. It wasn't until contacting me years later the Grandson found out it was originally a Sandman. He found the black paint under the yellow, and also discovered the front guard side strips were factory fitted but the doors and the quarters were accessory fitted.
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castellan Offline
#85 Posted : Monday, 7 January 2019 10:30:34 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Holden would of lost sales to Ford and Valiant with getting rid of the drum brake rubbish in the day.


I don't quite understand this statement. Could you elaborate.

Dr Terry


Trying to compete with price when the HD came out, if all the HD just went to disc, that would of added to the cost of the car and ford and Valiant would have an advantage in price that the majority would not relate to the benefit as to the disc brake advantages.

Now if the XP and AP6 Valiant all went Disc all would be fine, keeping things on a equal footing like.

Like when cars all became Air-Con, in the end no one buys a car with out Air-Con now do they and it would not sell well in the second hand market nowadays.
But with cars in 1965 you would not get an advantage on resale with disc brakes because the public were ignorant of such a thing.

Hey I bought a XG Falcon ute as soon as they came out I ordered it, but when I went to sell it, boy the ignorance ! most did not fathom that the XG was a way better car than the XF shit box and the resale was the same for both and I lost badly with it, but with my VS ute the resale was fantastic that I could not believe it.

So one has to look at things in such light of such.
castellan Offline
#86 Posted : Monday, 7 January 2019 10:49:42 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
There were also many that considered drums superior on unsealed roads, theory being not much gets into them.

I cannot confirm if this is true but have had a few people say it to me over the years.

As Byron said, options game, many HK Kingswoods that i saw were 186, disc, heater auto. Holden allowed you to choose the options, but they also pre ordered a lot of cars because they knew what was able to sell off the showroom floor.

The bread and butter model being Kingswood was kept nice and simple, a lot of people did not trust all these new "things". Back in the 70s and 80s a lot complained about the new cars having more features because "more can go wrong". I put power steering on my HZ Kingswood that my father in law purchased new, he drove it and could not believe how much better it was to drive, he asked why the salesman did not offer it, my response was "you were buying a Kingswood and you would have told him you have armstrong power steering". He conceded that that was his attitude back then.

The basic car buyer is after a basic car, we car enthusiasts look at them differently. For all their faults back in the 60s to mid 80s, the majority of cars sold here were bread and butter Holden/Commodore, Falcon and Valiant, 6 cylinder "shitboxes".

But there are also some well opted cars that turn up, for those who wanted to play the game and order what they needed. My dad's HQ wagon was 253, trimatic, 3.55 lsd, 6" rims, super lift shocks, head restraints (1971 model) sports dash, black cloth trim.


In QLD I never seen a disc brake on many 6 cyl cars until the HJ came out, even a heater was rare to see on a Kingswood before HJ.

Head rest on a 1971 Kingswood boy must of been a Dec build ? I have seen many a 1971 Premier without.
Sports dash ? you mean the one with temp gauge etc pack type option thing ?

If it was like so it must of been something that someone ordered and could not get finance for when the time came and then your dad got a chance to pick it up.
HK1837 Offline
#87 Posted : Monday, 7 January 2019 11:15:16 AM(UTC)
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Sports dash is option U21 on HQ, Was standard on HQ GTS and later standard on SS and Sandman. Only difference is GTS and Sandman got a 140mph speedo whereas everything else was 120mph (or metric equivalent).
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castellan Offline
#88 Posted : Monday, 7 January 2019 11:39:10 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Sports dash is option U21 on HQ, Was standard on HQ GTS and later standard on SS and Sandman. Only difference is GTS and Sandman got a 140mph speedo whereas everything else was 120mph (or metric equivalent).


I know it was an option but there is also the other option type with just gauges pack that all should of truly came with at lest, than just the stupid lights that come up telling you when it's too late.

As for the drum brakes that many considered superior on dirt roads, I have seen many a drum full of dirt floating about in their when taking the drum off, but never a disc, look at a dirt bikes they have disc going through mud etc all the time with no problems, I have had mud cake up the inside of the 17in wheels on my SS ute because the profiles to low, so I had to pull the wheels off to dig the mud out of them by hand, what a job ! but never problem with the disc at all.
wbute Offline
#89 Posted : Monday, 7 January 2019 11:45:32 AM(UTC)
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I would never say drums were better than discs on gravel. They fill up with dust that becomes mud in the rain. They seize up and the handbrake never works. Unbelievably my 2011 Hilux still has rear drums and no doubt the current ones do too.
My brothers WB Statesman series one has a 3:08 diff as standard and I doubt that was a factory built floor option? A lot of WB Kingswood utes got sports dash’s, they must have been building them as non ordered cars too surely?
Dr Terry Offline
#90 Posted : Monday, 7 January 2019 12:56:41 PM(UTC)
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I've never heard the theory that drums were better than discs on dirt roads, but the disc brakes of the late 60s were rubbish by comparison to today's discs.

Those early Girling systems that they used went thru pads at an alarming rate & were very noisy (squeaky) when hot.

Like anything new back then (e.g. auto trans) they were treated with suspicion & it wasn't until the larger ventilated sliding head caliper brakes arrived (HQ on) that discs were accepted by the average buyer.

The performance guys realised their potential however & put up with the shortcomings.

Dr Terry
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Dr Terry Offline
#91 Posted : Monday, 7 January 2019 1:17:01 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
In QLD I never seen a disc brake on many 6 cyl cars until the HJ came out, even a heater was rare to see on a Kingswood before HJ.

Head rest on a 1971 Kingswood boy must of been a Dec build ? I have seen many a 1971 Premier without.


It probably varied from state to state but by HG discs were standard for all V8s & a very common option for 6-cyl cars.

They were standard for all GTS (186S) in HK/T/G. They were also standard for 6-cyl HQ Premier from early 1973 on & all Monaro LS from day 1.

Fully motorised hearted/demisters were an ADR requirement from early 1971 onwards. I don't believe Holden sold an HQ in Australia without a heater/demister, even the most basic Belmont or One Tonner..

Head restraints were an option for 1971 HQ & standard (again an ADR requirement) for all cars 1972 onwards.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Warren Turnbull Offline
#92 Posted : Monday, 7 January 2019 6:14:07 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
There were also many that considered drums superior on unsealed roads, theory being not much gets into them.

I cannot confirm if this is true but have had a few people say it to me over the years.

As Byron said, options game, many HK Kingswoods that i saw were 186, disc, heater auto. Holden allowed you to choose the options, but they also pre ordered a lot of cars because they knew what was able to sell off the showroom floor.

The bread and butter model being Kingswood was kept nice and simple, a lot of people did not trust all these new "things". Back in the 70s and 80s a lot complained about the new cars having more features because "more can go wrong". I put power steering on my HZ Kingswood that my father in law purchased new, he drove it and could not believe how much better it was to drive, he asked why the salesman did not offer it, my response was "you were buying a Kingswood and you would have told him you have armstrong power steering". He conceded that that was his attitude back then.

The basic car buyer is after a basic car, we car enthusiasts look at them differently. For all their faults back in the 60s to mid 80s, the majority of cars sold here were bread and butter Holden/Commodore, Falcon and Valiant, 6 cylinder "shitboxes".

But there are also some well opted cars that turn up, for those who wanted to play the game and order what they needed. My dad's HQ wagon was 253, trimatic, 3.55 lsd, 6" rims, super lift shocks, head restraints (1971 model) sports dash, black cloth trim.


In QLD I never seen a disc brake on many 6 cyl cars until the HJ came out, even a heater was rare to see on a Kingswood before HJ.

Head rest on a 1971 Kingswood boy must of been a Dec build ? I have seen many a 1971 Premier without.
Sports dash ? you mean the one with temp gauge etc pack type option thing ?

If it was like so it must of been something that someone ordered and could not get finance for when the time came and then your dad got a chance to pick it up.


No my dad actually ordered the car like that, sports dash was oil, temp, ammeter and tachometer, column auto. My dad was the VDO agent and knew a lot about the HQ before it was released, so decided to get one, ordered it very early. He got the sports dash because it was only $45.
HK1837 Offline
#93 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 6:52:48 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
I would never say drums were better than discs on gravel. They fill up with dust that becomes mud in the rain. They seize up and the handbrake never works. Unbelievably my 2011 Hilux still has rear drums and no doubt the current ones do too.
My brothers WB Statesman series one has a 3:08 diff as standard and I doubt that was a factory built floor option? A lot of WB Kingswood utes got sports dash’s, they must have been building them as non ordered cars too surely?


An optional rear axle ratio is a sure pointer to a retail order car. GMH rarely built stock order cars with any ratio other than the normal one. 3.08 wasn’t even optional in WB at all so the car must have been a special order or an internal car. WB Statesman were all 2.6 or 3.36.
The sports dashes were fairly common in HZ and WB, GMH may well have snuck them into stock order cars to get a few extra bucks on the sale. There always seemed to be a lot of HZ Premiers around with the sports dash.
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justgm Offline
#94 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 9:56:20 AM(UTC)
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just checked WB April 1980 parts catalogue and it show the Statesman drivetrain as L31-M38-GU4(3.08) and Perf-GV4(3.36) Thanks Mark.
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HK1837 Offline
#95 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 11:30:41 AM(UTC)
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Mine is October 1983 and it shows G70 as standard with both M38 or M40. They must have changed at some stage.
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castellan Offline
#96 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 1:19:47 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Warren Turnbull Go to Quoted Post
There were also many that considered drums superior on unsealed roads, theory being not much gets into them.

I cannot confirm if this is true but have had a few people say it to me over the years.

As Byron said, options game, many HK Kingswoods that i saw were 186, disc, heater auto. Holden allowed you to choose the options, but they also pre ordered a lot of cars because they knew what was able to sell off the showroom floor.

The bread and butter model being Kingswood was kept nice and simple, a lot of people did not trust all these new "things". Back in the 70s and 80s a lot complained about the new cars having more features because "more can go wrong". I put power steering on my HZ Kingswood that my father in law purchased new, he drove it and could not believe how much better it was to drive, he asked why the salesman did not offer it, my response was "you were buying a Kingswood and you would have told him you have armstrong power steering". He conceded that that was his attitude back then.

The basic car buyer is after a basic car, we car enthusiasts look at them differently. For all their faults back in the 60s to mid 80s, the majority of cars sold here were bread and butter Holden/Commodore, Falcon and Valiant, 6 cylinder "shitboxes".

But there are also some well opted cars that turn up, for those who wanted to play the game and order what they needed. My dad's HQ wagon was 253, trimatic, 3.55 lsd, 6" rims, super lift shocks, head restraints (1971 model) sports dash, black cloth trim.


In QLD I never seen a disc brake on many 6 cyl cars until the HJ came out, even a heater was rare to see on a Kingswood before HJ.

Head rest on a 1971 Kingswood boy must of been a Dec build ? I have seen many a 1971 Premier without.
Sports dash ? you mean the one with temp gauge etc pack type option thing ?

If it was like so it must of been something that someone ordered and could not get finance for when the time came and then your dad got a chance to pick it up.


No my dad actually ordered the car like that, sports dash was oil, temp, ammeter and tachometer, column auto. My dad was the VDO agent and knew a lot about the HQ before it was released, so decided to get one, ordered it very early. He got the sports dash because it was only $45.


$45 back in 1971 is about what now $450 I would think, but yes I would go for that option my self for sure.
castellan Offline
#97 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 1:30:27 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: wbute Go to Quoted Post
I would never say drums were better than discs on gravel. They fill up with dust that becomes mud in the rain. They seize up and the handbrake never works. Unbelievably my 2011 Hilux still has rear drums and no doubt the current ones do too.
My brothers WB Statesman series one has a 3:08 diff as standard and I doubt that was a factory built floor option? A lot of WB Kingswood utes got sports dash’s, they must have been building them as non ordered cars too surely?


I have two test of the WB Caprice one is 2.60 diff and the other is a 3.08 diff.

I believe many of the last of the WB utes had the GTS dash especially the V8's.
A mate had a GTS dash ordered in his 253 WB 1 tonne.
HK1837 Offline
#98 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 2:01:59 PM(UTC)
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Not a GTS dash, sports or full instrument dash or words to that effect, especially in WB!
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castellan Offline
#99 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 2:10:40 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
I've never heard the theory that drums were better than discs on dirt roads, but the disc brakes of the late 60s were rubbish by comparison to today's discs.

Those early Girling systems that they used went thru pads at an alarming rate & were very noisy (squeaky) when hot.

Like anything new back then (e.g. auto trans) they were treated with suspicion & it wasn't until the larger ventilated sliding head caliper brakes arrived (HQ on) that discs were accepted by the average buyer.

The performance guys realised their potential however & put up with the shortcomings.

Dr Terry


My HG 253 Premier I never had a problem with the disc on it, but boy did I go through the pads Hardie ferodo pads I used in that, but come to think of it I have never had noisy brakes ever, but I always fit them myself.

Drum brakes car would get total brake fade on the highway on the first emergency attempt from 100 mph and then end up nothing from about 35mph as she would just sale on by with nothing at all left, talk about junk !

I do not like the rear postie drum brake inside the disk for a hand brake system, they were as weak as piss, if you lost brakes going down a hill you could kiss your arse good by.

Not to mention that the stock pads and 4 wheel disc on my XG ute were crap from 200km/h and hit them hard and they were totally gone by 60km/h, I found that out dragging off a VR Highway patrol one night, I had just had a run with a 351 XY GT up to 210km/h we were neck and neck all the way and I had just plodded along at 160km/h when the radar went off and I went back to 4th and into it and seeing them come out of there hideout, well I hid lights out behind a big tree as they went by flat out, them there disc would of been glowing tho, haha ! so then I got Bendix metal king and that fixed that brake fade problem.
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#100 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 2:40:42 PM(UTC)
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Your are correct it's not a GTS dash.

But I was just thinking I wonder what was the best 6cyl motor in the 60's to 70's Holden red or fords log types and X flow or the Valiant slant 6 or Hemi or even maybe Zephyr 6 or even others like 4x4 Datsun or sedan OHC, 4x4 Toyota or sedan OHC, or the land rover 6 with it's wavy piston top and intake valve in the head and exhaust valve in the block.

Was a 1961 XK 144 a better engine than a 1961 grey lets say, could anyone say that the grey is better in any way to the modern 144 ? and then you had the option of the big 170 power house in the last few months of the XK what a rocket ship that must of been in the day. not to mention that they became the Super Pursuit 170 in the XL one could go down and hose off any Holden and be the big man in the Pub boasting for anyone to bring it out. haha this could of been serious back in the days.
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