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HK1837 Offline
#101 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 3:39:15 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Your are correct it's not a GTS dash.

But I was just thinking I wonder what was the best 6cyl motor in the 60's to 70's Holden red or fords log types and X flow or the Valiant slant 6 or Hemi or even maybe Zephyr 6 or even others like 4x4 Datsun or sedan OHC, 4x4 Toyota or sedan OHC, or the land rover 6 with it's wavy piston top and intake valve in the head and exhaust valve in the block.

Was a 1961 XK 144 a better engine than a 1961 grey lets say, could anyone say that the grey is better in any way to the modern 144 ? and then you had the option of the big 170 power house in the last few months of the XK what a rocket ship that must of been in the day. not to mention that they became the Super Pursuit 170 in the XL one could go down and hose off any Holden and be the big man in the Pub boasting for anyone to bring it out. haha this could of been serious back in the days.


There is only one winner in that debate, hands down it is the Australian Hemi. Even the 265 Hemi as a standard engine in the late 70's was as good as or if not a superior engine to a GMH 5.0L or Ford 5.0L let alone the 6's. If you read road tests of the day when say they compare HZ 5.0L Sandman to XC 5.0L Sundowner to CL 4.3L Drifter (all 4spd) they wanted the Holden's chassis with the Ford's interior but wanted the Drifter's engine. Motor in January 1978 tested all three in the above spec, the 4.3L CL van was basically the same in 1/4 mile, top speed and was actually quicker than the other two in 0-80, 0-100 and 0-120kmh. And it averaged 12.8L/100kM compared to the HZ's 15.7 and the XC's 22.6. Both the XC and the CL were 2.92 rear axles and the HZ a 3.08.

Sure there might be some exotic 6's like Jaguar, Mercedes, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Porche or BMW that could argue the above, but put one of them from the 60's or 70's up against a VH E49 and see which one wins!
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Dr Terry Offline
#102 Posted : Tuesday, 8 January 2019 3:56:00 PM(UTC)
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It all depends on what you parameters are in defining something as the "best".

If you want outright long term durability you can't beat the Holden & Ford 6-cyls of the late 60s & early 70s. My money would be on HT/G 186 & XY/A/B 250 log motors. If you didn't get 750,000 MILES !! from one of these (in taxi use) you were doing something wrong.

True, a lot of later Ford & Holden engines will go near this, but not without a lot more $$ spent on maintenance. The old units were so cheap to service & tune.

The Hemi was a poor 3rd place in this regard, the main issues being timing chains & valve stem seals.

If efficiency & power to weight is your criteria, that's a different story.

Dr Terry

Edited by user Wednesday, 9 January 2019 10:01:09 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling

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castellan Offline
#103 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 9:47:46 AM(UTC)
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I would say that the 2 barrel 245 and 265 Hemi 6 were good performing but they did do valve stem seals for sure.

No one could bag the Holden red 6 for being durability apart from the 202 would do big end bearings due to bad quality rod bolts stretching, the longer stroke must and ratio must tax the bolts more so. and valves getting burnt out is a problem with some, they must be running too lean I would think, what I have seen of such is people who pussy foot the car who had this problem and never seen anyone burn out a valve who drove one hard.
The smaller red engines were not as harsh when you rev them out like some 186 and 202 were, some were not all that bad but some were shocking, a mate had a VC 3.3L and it was the most harsh holden 6 I have ever come across, but many blue 3.3L were better than the reds that I came across in std form, I believe the rods were so mixed matched being the main problem, when you look at them you would see big lumps and small lumps on the big ends and small ends all over the place, but you did not see that crap on the Ford 6 as they were all the same.

Some of the Holden 6 ate the cam timing gear, my sisters HK 186 went at about 60,000miles and it was owned by a real old bloke who only plodded about in it. but my 202 had 98,000miles up on it when I sold it and I flogged the piss and pick handles out of that and never had I problem with the engine but blew gearbox diff and axle.

Ford 6 would blow pistons cracking around the top and some crack the Log on the heads part and I dropped the head off a valve on my 3.3L XC.

My Dads VG ute 245 2 barrel blew the mains straight out and the crank came out on to the road with the gearbox and all not long after he soled it, the dude was flat out on the highway when it went, so what I have heard is that some of the early blocks had air bubbles in the block casting and that was sorted out in the months ahead when casting to eliminate that problem.

A mates brother had a old 6 cyl Toyota 4X4 and it had a bubble in the top of the bore the size of a jelly bean cut in half like looking thing with no problem and the big ends bolt and nut like you have on your wheel bearings that you run a split pin through them both.

The 6 CYL Land rover with the huge wave lump toped piston, that must of added much weighed, but it was a slow rev engine, when I seen that it only had a intake valve in the head I had never seen or heard of that ever before, back in 1978 it was.

I never heard people bagging the old 6 CYL Toyota and Datsun 4X4 back in the days, but I would stir the possum, I would say that the Holden Overlander would be the way to go, than that old bustard arse crap and they would spit the dummy directly. it was a good way to get them fired up. haha good times. and sure they have their advantages in some ways but if you really want to take on the harsh going you can't beat the old WW2 Jeep, they will go anywhere with ease that your jap 4x4 will be a real hard slog and out with the winch, as the old Jeep will stop beside you and take off easy as piss.
ExportHolden Offline
#104 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 10:43:42 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: justgm Go to Quoted Post
just checked WB April 1980 parts catalogue and it show the Statesman drivetrain as L31-M38-GU4(3.08) and Perf-GV4(3.36) Thanks Mark.


Are you sure it was GU4 and not G70 (2.60:1)?

The Oct 83 parts manual has it as G70 as std and GV4 as a perf option. I have seen only one GV4 Statesman DeVille , a Series 1 also with the vinyl seat option. Every other WB Statesman plate I've seen has diff ratio as G70.

When planning Project 1938 (WB series), Holden had intended for the Statesman to have the 2.60:1 ratio diff right from the first Product Planning Submission - Car in Oct 1975. Sometime after that they had decided on the 3.08:1 diff but then on the Sept 24, 1979 PPS-C the typed 3.08:1 ratio for DeVille and Caprice was crossed out and 2.60:1 pencilled in, with the note at the bottom of the page saying, " 2.60:1 REPLACES 3.08:1 AXLE RATIO AS BASE -- EFF ASAP". (There was also a change in Cab Chassis diff ratio from 4.44:1 to 3.55:1.)

That was very late in the piece (pre-pilot build commenced in Aug and pilot build cars were on the line in Elizabeth in Dec 79) so possibly they didn't catch the change for the Apr '80 parts manual.
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#105 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 12:42:49 PM(UTC)
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Hi ExportHolden , That's what the parts book said ..3.08. just checked August 1980 brochure ( AB26) and it lists 2.60 standard on Caprice and statesman ?? . 1 tonner in the 1980 parts book is 4.44-M15, 4.44-M22, 3.55-M40 . In the April 1980 brochure (AD100420 )standard driveline 3 speed and 4.44 diff. You could be correct about the parts book as I found looking at the codes for production plants it says NZ will be stamped on the plate ….. GMNZ did not even fit those type of plates here ( why would they use them when it says Made In Australia ). Thanks Mark.
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HK1837 Offline
#106 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 1:28:20 PM(UTC)
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If the records ever turn up for the pilot or restricted production WB's it may be that early cars were built different to volume production. Like there were some 253 auto HT's built up front, but the option was removed during restricted production.
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ExportHolden Offline
#107 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 2:20:11 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
If the records ever turn up for the pilot or restricted production WB's it may be that early cars were built different to volume production. Like there were some 253 auto HT's built up front, but the option was removed during restricted production.


The WB Kingswood (A9K) sedan, Kingswood SL sdn & wgn, Premier sedan were removed late. Oct 9, 1979 seems to be the first revision cancelling these models from the programme. I wonder how many pre-production models were made. There's the Kingswood SL in Birdwood, I don't think any others survive.

BTW Sandman was also intended for the WB series but I don't have a record of when that was cancelled.



HK1837 Offline
#108 Posted : Wednesday, 9 January 2019 2:53:25 PM(UTC)
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I think you'll find it was cancelled prior to HZ Sandman cancellation. Ute was earlier in 1979, van I think was later in the year. They kept the XU4, XY7 and BO6 versions going though.

I hope to catch the Curator at Birdwood in February and get him to lift the bonnet of that WA/WB Kingswood and see if it has a PSN on it so I can date it. I'll be able to tell immediately if it is a HJ or a HX/HZ body but it would be nice to know when it was put together. Plus a PSN will lead me to a gap in the Pagewood records, unless the body was done at Pagewood and then assembled at one of the other plants it might give up the PSN's of the examples.

Edited by user Wednesday, 9 January 2019 2:56:21 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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castellan Offline
#109 Posted : Wednesday, 20 March 2019 10:35:18 AM(UTC)
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Anyone remember the Tyres back in the days from FX to WB.

I never drove a car with old rag tyres on the roads.

My father in law claims that the more weigh in a tyre is the best because their is more rubber in it, now he said that to me and I thought f off you are trying to piss in my ear.

But back in the old rag type he may of been correct.

Now another old dude claimed that with Dunlop that the only thing that they got right was the colour, I had Dunlop on at the time and they were real good top of the line W1 I think, so I said you are pissing into the wind ya silly old goat.

I remember my dad 1st steel belt radials he put on his HQ, well they hung on much better but they got a side wall bubble and many others back in them days did I remember.

Not to mention rubber compounds they were all crap that went hard when half way worn, so I would trade them in then for new as it was not worthy to the likes of me, but then around he time that the Brimstone RE71 came out the rubber compound was far better and all the way to the end. not to mentioned that tyres have not improved from the RE71 really.

Does anyone have opinions on tyres.
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#110 Posted : Wednesday, 20 March 2019 5:26:24 PM(UTC)
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The problem with tyres is we no longer make them in Australia, and most of the respected brands switched to cheap labour countries - many former Japanese & European manaufactured brands are coming out of Asia - some excellent, some not so great. I bought another set of OEM wheels a couple of years back that had some Chinese tyres on them. The seller had put 20" rims on his car, but warned me the 1/2 worn tyres weren't that good, and not to drive far on them. I fitted them up, and only drove from home to the tyre place - regretting every minute of it. Not only were they slippery as all hell in the dry, and felt like they were out of round - vibrating like crazy. I got the tyre fitter to spin one of them up on the balancer before removing the tyres from the rims, and the tread visibly moved up & down. The high spot ended up being a huge blister between the tread & the carcass, spread the whole width of the tyre, and similar in length, and looked like half a soccer ball was under it. The other 3 had similar blisters, but mush smaller - one about the size of half an egg, and the other 2 were about a baseball size. Because of how hard they were, I though they were old, but the dates showed they were only 3 years since manufacture - seems China's rubber compounding is like that from the 70s.....

But getting back to quality.

The RE71 was a premium tyre in it's day. But it had it's day - the performance levels of the RE71 are found in affordable mainstream tyres these days (the decent brands).
One of my favourites was post-RE71, the Bridgestone G-Grid in the early/mid 90s.
When I couldn't get them anymore, I switched to the Japanese Toyo Proxes (which you can still get today, but they aren't a patch on the old ones).
Both those tyres hung on well, but even the decent South-East Asian tyres like Hankook & Nexen match or better them these days.

I never bought the Yokohama A-008, but many of my mates did. I wasn't going to waste big money on tyres that only lasted 20,000km. The G-Grids & Proxes would easily do 60K from a set on a VH Commodore.

I've been really impressed with the Pirelli Dragon Sport I've been running on my FG for the last 9 months.
Far better than the OEM Goodyears & others I've had - yet they are Asian made too, and around the same price as the known mainstream brands.
To me, they feel like one of the best affordable mainstream tyres I've ever run.
Problem is, it's been so long since I've run the others, and on a totally different car, that it's not a fair comparison.
Cheers,

Mick
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castellan Offline
#111 Posted : Wednesday, 20 March 2019 7:40:22 PM(UTC)
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Yes I agree.

I did some cleaning up in the shed and seen a old motorbike tubes was split then found another the same, well they have a shelf life as well, the corona ? effect or is it the corolla effect I call it. haha !

Well I used 3 sets Michelin tyres with my VY SS from new, same type but they changed the type every time with in a year, now they were all very different, I loved the first set it steered like it was on rails it was just so direct but the next did not all were good, but then a mate with the same car got some cheep crap Westlakes yes they were crap but if you pumped them up to 50 PSI they were good but road harsh, but good value and I found that a lot of the cheep crap like that can be ok, not to mention I had some 225/60 15 Falken tyres before the SS that were real touchy with tyre pressures, I would know what the pressure had dropped by 4 PSI as it made a hell of a difference.

Edited by user Wednesday, 20 March 2019 10:07:25 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

HK1837 Offline
#112 Posted : Thursday, 21 March 2019 6:02:39 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Anyone remember the Tyres back in the days from FX to WB.

I never drove a car with old rag tyres on the roads.

My father in law claims that the more weigh in a tyre is the best because their is more rubber in it, now he said that to me and I thought f off you are trying to piss in my ear.

But back in the old rag type he may of been correct.

Now another old dude claimed that with Dunlop that the only thing that they got right was the colour, I had Dunlop on at the time and they were real good top of the line W1 I think, so I said you are pissing into the wind ya silly old goat.

I remember my dad 1st steel belt radials he put on his HQ, well they hung on much better but they got a side wall bubble and many others back in them days did I remember.

Not to mention rubber compounds they were all crap that went hard when half way worn, so I would trade them in then for new as it was not worthy to the likes of me, but then around he time that the Brimstone RE71 came out the rubber compound was far better and all the way to the end. not to mentioned that tyres have not improved from the RE71 really.

Does anyone have opinions on tyres.


My old '57 Chev had crossplies on it, but I changed to radials. The crossplies rode nice but they tended to track and follow road grooves a lot compared to radials. It was a dead stock old thing though, so no performance vehicle. I can tell you that there was actually a car that qualified in position 14 on the grid at Bathurst 1969 with stock Dunlop D70's (Sheldon/Holland), the cars in front of it were afaik on Firestone racing rubber or Michelin XAS.

I also remember my parent's HQ wagon, Dad fitted early radials to it at some stage in the 70's, SteelCats if I remember correctly. I remember at least two of these failing on Mum.

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abi Offline
#113 Posted : Thursday, 21 March 2019 10:05:57 AM(UTC)
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From what I have been able to find out, most all the radials from the 60's including the Michelin XAS were 80% aspect ratio so were marked on the sidewall as tyre width, SR14 or HR14. The XAS I believe were 185HR14, approx 25.5in diameter and 80 profile.
The HQ SS were fitted with 195SR14 80% profile on the 6in sports wheel. As we know ER70 radials were first available on the HT series and are the equivalent to a modern 205/70/14 today.
Agree the RE71 were a fantastic tyre, my parents had a 1984 Mazda 929 hardtop and these were factory fitment, unbelievable dry grip. Later in 1990 I raced a Suzuki Swift GTI on a variant of these tyres called a RE71R, they looked identical to the road tyre but had ever 2nd sipe deleted and remainder sipes were half depth and were softer compound, superb road/club race tyre.
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#114 Posted : Sunday, 24 March 2019 1:25:23 PM(UTC)
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Back in the day tyres. Dad used the original Pirelli Centurado on our Fiats. A rag radial, and IMHO better than the Michelin X or ZX that our later Fiats came with. Moving on to the late '70s, I had Uniroyal 240s in the BR7013 size on the Fiat. Lousy on dirt is my memory from 40 years ago. Same time frame, the Goodyear Supersteels used to shed tread too. As an apprentice I saw a HZ sedan with marks halfway up the C pillar from a tread separation. Must have made a racket.
On the Gemini, Bridgestone RD 111. No real issues apart from a me killing one on the Newell, and replacing it with the only thing the small tyre store had in stock. A Reidrubber knock off of the original TA. A horrible tyre. Would breakaway with no warning.

By then I'm working for Ensign Tyres who flogged Semperit. Their 401s had separation issues too. Mostly the made in Ireland ones. Story there was that someone was steam cleaning the machinery and the water caused enough corrosion on the steel belts that the rubber wouldn't bond.

End of rant.
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castellan Offline
#115 Posted : Sunday, 24 March 2019 6:46:10 PM(UTC)
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I have had one steel belt radial tyre that separated back in 1987 about 100km out of Darwin. f I thought the tail shaft had dropped out directly, siting on 100KM/H in Feb mid day like hot as, I can not remember the name brand but it had 90% good rubber on it, and drove fine until she just let go, pulled up and by the time I got the spare out, she was flat, did not hurt the XC P Van at all. but she had delaminated like as if it was a re-tread.

I ran over the biggest snake I have ever seen about 20km before that.

Any way had a girl friend with the same type of brand tyres on her Escort and they delaminated as well on two of them tyres.
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#116 Posted : Monday, 25 March 2019 10:14:39 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: abi Go to Quoted Post
From what I have been able to find out, most all the radials from the 60's including the Michelin XAS were 80% aspect ratio so were marked on the sidewall as tyre width, SR14 or HR14. The XAS I believe were 185HR14, approx 25.5in diameter and 80 profile.
The HQ SS were fitted with 195SR14 80% profile on the 6in sports wheel. As we know ER70 radials were first available on the HT series and are the equivalent to a modern 205/70/14 today.
Agree the RE71 were a fantastic tyre, my parents had a 1984 Mazda 929 hardtop and these were factory fitment, unbelievable dry grip. Later in 1990 I raced a Suzuki Swift GTI on a variant of these tyres called a RE71R, they looked identical to the road tyre but had ever 2nd sipe deleted and remainder sipes were half depth and were softer compound, superb road/club race tyre.


Pretty sure you are right, Michelin still make a 185HR14 as a MXV-P TL which is 650mm OD. Doing the sums for it as an 80% profile I get 651.6mm which is close enough to be right.
They actually also now make an XAS in a 185/70VR14 which is one of only a few technically legal 14” radial tyres you can buy for a GTS327, GTS350 or GT-HO. The H rating was the highest back then, but in reality these cars need V rated tyres now as H is capped at 210kmh (130.5mph). All of these cars were capable of higher than that and IIRC H was fine in the late 60’s but not now.
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castellan Offline
#117 Posted : Sunday, 14 April 2019 11:31:20 AM(UTC)
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How about the HP of the 5.0L Torana's that raced Bathurst and then the VB as they only ran small valves and then the VC HP with big valves and up to the last EFI 5.0L V8's. do we have them HP numbers.
castellan Offline
#118 Posted : Sunday, 14 April 2019 12:37:58 PM(UTC)
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I found VB race Commodore 331hp small valves and VC big valves 391hp at 6500 10.5:1 with a redline at 6500RPM and running a 3.08 diff ratio.

I also found the XD 5.8L had 410hp 6500 10.5:1 with the small 2V valves, but the XE 5.8L got a alloy intake with power jumping to 437hp with a 7500RPM redline and running a 3.50 diff ratio.

And the Camaro 5.7L had 480hp at Bathurst.

The latest 5.0L are around 620hp to 650hp running 10.0:1
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#119 Posted : Sunday, 14 April 2019 12:38:18 PM(UTC)
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Larry Perkins would have the exact figures for the last of the GM-H V8 Supercar engines.

The 308’s that ran in 1973 onwards GroupC will have varied a bit as they got better at building them and making them last. Some had Holley carbs and some had Dellortos too, and as you know camshafts were free in GroupC so everyone would have had a different setup. The F5000 numbers would be good to know as well. Norm Darwin published GMH’s dyno results of the developed L34 and F5000, will post them up when I get a chance.
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