Though I would start a new topic, rather than keep this one going on in another (see monaro codes discussion strats on page 3):

Here is the debate so far:

Car must be the most powerful in a range and be unique engine just to that car, produced by GM-H. (some may have been contracted by GM-H)

Following list of confirmed Muscle cars:

Brabham Torana
HK GTS 327
HT GTS 350 Manual
LC GTR XU1
HG GTS 350 Manual
LJ GTR XU1
LH L34
LX A9X
VK Group A SS (contracted by GM-H)
VL Group A SS (contracted by GM-H)
VN Group A SS (contracted by GM-H)
VZ Monaro

The following are not:

HD/HR X2 and 186S as this was an engine option available across the entire range.

HQ GTS 350 as the 350 was available in the LS and Statesman.

LC GTR and LH SLR 5000 as they were replaced with a more powerful version during the range, if you include them then you must also include HT GTS with 307.

LX/UC/VB/VC Turbo as they were built by Sydney and Melbourne dealers. Even if you did include them the only one to qualify would be the UC.

HDT/HSV/CSV etc as these are seperate manufaccturers/modifiers and this is a GM-H list.

The EH S4 is an interesting one, Dr Terry has pointed out that these are blue printed engine and have a unique rear axle ratio for the combination, I still disagree with the S4 being included on the following: If blue printing means more power then only GTHOs with QC engine option would qualify. Secondly after Bathurst I spoke to my father about the S4. He was the service agent for smiths industries and therefore the service agent for GM-H instruments during the late 60s and 70s. I asked him about the larger fuel tank and its different sender, when I told him that he had to order the part only through Cheenies or (cannot remember the other dealer) he simply said that if he could not order the part through a normal dealer or GM-H itself it was not a GM-H part. Which supports my argument that the S4 was not built by GM-H, a bit like the VH Group A SS. If GM-H contracted Cheenies to do the S4 then they would have stocked parts, I am yet to find any parts in the parts book for an S4. So Terry I am not going to put it on the list yet.

HK GTS 327 second type is on the list, even though it is less powerful that the first type. If not then the LC XU1 70 spec and LJ 72 spec would also be removed.

The HQ GTS manual "package" was not available on other HQs so might be argued that this should be included, but then the current SS would be included as it is the only V8 Commodore manual avaialable at the moment.

As Dr Terry has said, lets make reasonable argument to include others on the list, or even remove some if you want. Firstly remeber the criteria though.

Warren

Surely to qualify as a genuine muscle car, the car must be a product of the muscle car era....'65 - '75 which could also be debated.
Regards Matt

Hi Warren.

I agree with most of your points, but have 2 more that should be on the list.

The EH S4 & the VL SS Group A (A9L) carby version.

The 120 production S4s were built in the Pagewood factory, not in Melbourne (as the S4 prototypes were). T

Wikipedia has a great and detailed definition on muscle cars.......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car

Matt

Jim, the most powerful car in that range, so lets say they did not make the L34 the SLR 5000 would be as the 308 was unique to the SLR 5000 in the Torana range, even though they used the 308 in the hJ at the time. So this is how the muscle car thing start

Hi Guys

Several good points there Warren. We don't want to be accused of being too elitist.

I like the idea of a performance car list too, the problem again is where do you draw the line.

You end up with stock standard car with appearance package

I dont think there will ever be a set of selection criteria for muscle cars that will appeal to everyone, I too agree a performance list is also a good idea to qualify vehicles that dont quite make the muscle car status. That status for me is defined by

In the VZ series, which engine spec and options apply for this series muscle car ?

Are we talking 6.0ltr or 5.7 ltr ? Is is just on looks or last production value ?

Also all the other cars have some track lineage. So where does the VZ fit in ? Targa

Hi John.

The Holden Monaro didn't get the 6.0-litre V8. The LS2 6.0 V8 was only fitted to HSVs (i.e. not Holdens) & by the time that the L76 6.0 V8 was fitted to the Holden VZ for the 2006 model year, the Monaro was already out of production. The 5.7-l

not a very nice list. a bit scrappy. :(

as far as im concerned, a muscle car is anything from the 60s and 70s with loud colours, blackouts, stripes and spoilers. :p GTSs, gts, SSs, SLRs... etc. the lot! :D

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4/76 HJ mona