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Originally Posted by: castellan  Originally Posted by: HK1837 Originally Posted by: castellan Originally Posted by: HK1837 Originally Posted by: castellan Why do people look up to cars like XY GT-HO for example as tagged a Bathurst thing, they are not, many people bought such a car just to drive on the roads, it was a fast car and there is no big deal about the car in reality anyone could make one up out of a XY Falcon.
When I see a XY GT-HO I see it for what it is, nothing to do with Bathurst or racing at all and anyone who idolises the Bathurst thing is just pissing into the wind. Sure they had to build X amount for the racing credentials but that has got bugger all to do with who buys the cars off the showroom floor.
I see the cars for what they are and that's it.
I knew a mate with a VC Brock from new and never thought of it as a Bathurst car at all, in fact it was just a gutless slug.
The VH Group 3 performed well but no racing car.
The VK Group A could be classed as a greater performance car then all the other Holden's before it and then the VN Group A is the next true performance car.
So we have Holden HK GTS 327, HT GTS 350, HG GTS 350 then the VH Group 3, VK Group A, VN-P Group A, VR-S GTS, Torana LC-J XU-1. These cars were the ducks nuts in there day to drive, that no one could snicker about being gutless crap.
The Torana L34 does not count as Joe public could not buy the car off the showroom floor. I agree with most of that, although the GT-HO was built purposely to win the 500 mile event. It was Ford's "win at all costs" mentality at the time. The original XR GT was built for the event as well after Ford found out about GMH's new coupe and thought that GMH were building for racing. The only one of GMH's performance cars of the day not built for Series Production and particularly the 500 mile event was the GTS327. It was an image car from the outset, but GMH did change the suspension at the last minute after Ford won the 1967 500, and they decided to try the car in the 1968 event. Yes the HG was never intended to race, but the HG series itself was never intended to be, it was a stopgap second facelift of the HT to see GMH through until the new US styled HQ (the cancelled HQ was meant to replace the HT and was a reshaped HK). You are spot on with the VK Group A, it was a weapon. It was the first GMH product post HT-HG GTS350M to be as quick (or quicker) as those cars. The VH Group 3 and the VR GTS etc aren't really Holdens, but the Group A'a are, but a VH Group 3 with the optional 180kW engine (not the HO engine or the standard engine) is just shaded by about 10-15hp at the treads by the GTS350M. I don't see it in of as built for the event, although that maybe true in one point. I see the XR GT etc as it's just as a true drivers car, it's just something I would aspire to buy in the day and to me the reason I would buy a car in the day would have nothing to do with Bathurst at all, although Bathurst back in the day was a real big thing that most Aussies would watch and talk about and relate to some how and that the selling point was not in the GT but the average hack Falcon sales would be up due to a Falcon win, so old Joe Blow would be some how influenced to by his Falcon 500 with 200ci 6 CYL. I don't see a LC-J XU-1 win having any influence on me at all, I would buy the GTS Monaro or GT any day over that bucket any day. If the Bathurst race showed that the Fords or Holden's were blowing up gearboxes or engines etc well that may of influence me to buy the other make. I don't see the HG as anything but the next model, sure you don't have the options of 12 bolt diff but so what if it's street driven, who drives with lower ratios than 3.55 anyway and with such a GTS350 would be lucky to push only 110MPH flat out. The XW GT-HO Phase 2 and XY GT-HO Phase 3 were just a car for red blooded people to buy for the extra power for the highway to get past the old slug trucks that littered the highways back then, plodding along 50MPH at best and then down to 10MPH on the hills, that's a true story and that's what it was like, so you would come up to such a case and if you seen the opportunity you thought f this ! I am out of here and go for it and pass 10 or so cars and the truck, and that's what makes it a nice enjoyable trip, and that's the difference of having a boring trip plodding along with no hope of getting past all the slow shitty crap.   The GT-HO was built to win the 500 primarily (without the 500 the GT-HO would never have been built), and although the HT GTS350 was an updated HK GTS327 image car, the HT was built with the 500 in mind. Harry Firth designed the GT-HO before Ford and him parted ways, but Ford didn't build the car to the spec he designed it as and he knew it. This is why he had Hooroo Superoo and Ho-Ho-Ho stickers on the rear bars of the GTS350's in 1969 as he knew the GT-HO he designed was a superior race car to the HDT GTS350's but not what Ford actually built. The whole concept of "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" is why the 500 was so important to Ford and why it became important to GMH as they saw the results that Ford achieved after 1967. I essentially agree with the XU-1, it wouldn't make me want one either, at least not when there was a 350ci HQ GTS coupe and sedan available. The HG is actually less than the next model in GTS350 terms. Nothing really changed with the HG GTS350M over the HT other than cosmetics, whereas the rest of the range had significant changes. All it was is HT GTS350 engines and transmissions that were meant to last until the end of HT, but HT got cut short as GMH didn't want the HT to run for as long as it had to especially as the HQ also blew out. They had to make a semi second facelift (the first of its kind for GMH). The key point is those last special build HG GTS350 manual engines from Canada, the predicted number of manual HT GTS350's to be built and last for the HT Series run would have lasted until GMH needed the Canadian engines in HG - that is the original series end for HT. The 12 bolts were made available through Nasco for HK-HT as you say, they weren't really optional as such, you had to buy the completed car and the 12-bolt was a Nasco order which had a 3-4 month lead time. To date I think there is only 3 proven cars known to get them, the Beechey HT and the two HK Rally cars. There would have been more but not many as the rear axle was a massive cost compared to the whole car. The PhaseII was built after the GT-HO didn't win in 1969, and luckily for all of us I think, Ford won in 1970 as I doubt they would have continued pouring money into the sport if they'd been beaten by the little 6cyl LC. Another few laps in 1970 though and the LC probably would have won as McPhee had already slowed so that Moffat's failing car could win and then McPhee's car developed a miss (this is all reported as fact in motoring magazines of the day). Don Holland was about half a lap behind and catching up quickly. How good would it have been though if GMH stuck with the GTS350 for one more year, meaning an extra year of development on the GTS350 and better rubber available? 1970 would have then been a cracker of a race. The actual 1970 race time being slower and the fastest lap being slower than 1969 tells you the GTS350's should have won easily, but that is speculation only! How can anyone say that the HG GTS350 was a less a car than the HT GTS350 off the showroom floor as no one as such got the 12 bolt diff and all is truly just really the same same but for the last McKinnon 350 and that was just luck as far as the owner would have a faster car, let alone the fastest GMH car they made for Joh Blow till the VK Groupe A. So that made them lot of last HG GTS350 Holden Monaro's the best ever off the showroom floor to hit the highway on and that makes them the king of the road Holden and a person who owned one of such cars need not apologise to anyone, that this HG was the best ever. In South Africa they must of got a lot of the fastest 350's in the SS350 Monaro's as they are being made up to 1972, or do they end up just get the HQ 350 8.5:1 type of slug. I don't think anyone that knows anything about Holdens can truthfully say the HG GTS350 manual was a lesser car than the HT. The difference is only cosmetic other than most HG GTS350M got a 3.08 rear axle whereas HT was 3.36 standard. The HG GTS350 auto did however had softer suspension than the HT equivalent. As you say those final HG GTS350 manuals got a more powerful engine, but it was a marginal improvement in the scheme of things. Still the most powerful GMH vehicle though until the VK GroupA as stated. I'm not 100% sure which 350 engine went into the Chevrolet SS, but i'll ask. Not sure if that info is actually nailed yet either. All of the parts for them were put together into the body and mechanical packs prior to the end of HG production in Australia - all 308's in them are early 1971 HG spec engines. Almost certainly they'll be a 1970 L48 spec engine (1969-1970 L48 are essentially the same 300hp 10.25:1 engine) but what I don't know is if they are the normal production L48 out of Tonawanda or the special build 350 engine from St Catharine's. Edited by user Wednesday, 2 November 2016 12:42:46 PM(UTC)
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