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202 or 186 for Performance Engine
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David 67HR Offline
#1 Posted : Wednesday, 3 January 2018 1:51:01 PM(UTC)
David 67HR

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Which is better to build a performance engine in my HR ute a 202 or a 186
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HK1837 Offline
#2 Posted : Wednesday, 3 January 2018 5:12:41 PM(UTC)
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Put it this way. What do people do to make a 304/308 or 302/327/350 go harder? They stroke 304/308 to 350ci or 377ci, and stroke 302/327/350 upwards to the next size or 377ci.

With the Holden 6 GMH did the stroking for you, they created the 202 by stroking a 186.

Easy power comes from cubic inch increases. Not saying you can't make good power from a 186, it will just be harder, rev harder and cost more to get the equivalent power you get from a 202. A 202 is about 8.6% bigger in cubic inches than a 186. Compared to a 327 and 350 SBC, the 350 is only 7% bigger than a 327 and it is all stroke. GM rated the basically identical other than stroke L30 (327ci, 275hp) and L48 (350ci, 300hp). The L30 is a great engine, revs harder but also works harder and doesn't pull as hard as the L48. But give the 327 lumpy tops for 11:1 compression, bigger valves and bigger cam and you have the L79 327 with 325hp or 350hp depending upon the exhaust manifolds. It will smack the L48's arse, but the same mods made to the 350 will kill the 327. Same applies to 186 and 202, for a street car go for the longer stroke every time!
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David 67HR on 3/01/2018(UTC)
Dr Terry Offline
#3 Posted : Wednesday, 3 January 2018 8:55:50 PM(UTC)
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Harry tried to win Bathurst with a 186 (twice) & failed, but he succeeded with a 202 (1972) & almost won again in 1973 with a 202.

With all other things being equal, you can't beat cubic inches.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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David 67HR on 3/01/2018(UTC)
griffo Offline
#4 Posted : Thursday, 4 January 2018 4:06:13 AM(UTC)
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Get a good Blue 202 if you can. It has the electronic dizzy, 12 port head, two barrel carb with headers with a different cam.We had them in WB utes and they would all pull over the ton, and ol mate was to good for a fuel injected XE on the Hay plain back in the day.
In the utes they sounded lumpy but not in the commodores...Exhaust or different cam?...Others might know why....My books say they were the same tho..

XF weber goes well on them too.You pick one up on eBay for not much...The adapter plate is the expensive part.
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HK1837 Offline
#5 Posted : Thursday, 4 January 2018 7:31:10 AM(UTC)
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Griffo is right, the blue and black engines went better than the red 202's especially the later pollution examples.

In a HR though i'd just use any 202 block you can get, you can use any of them. The better one to get is a red 202 with a rope seal, so essentially late HQ onwards (so a blue/black crank fits). Put a blue/black crank and rods in it with new flat top pistons. Get a cam with a grind close to 186S or thereabouts, find an open chamber Yella Terra 179-202 red head (has the L on the manifold side) and fit a 186S inlet manifold and headers (or extractors) with either a 186S carb or a Weber carb as Griffo says. Blue/Black HEI dizzy regraphed to suit.

Here are some headers and pipes:
https://www.ebay.com.au/...259a:g:Q8EAAOSwySVaNfRm

Here is a 186S inlet and carby, expensive but the rebuild on the carb would cost $250 or so, so not too bad. Manifolds still turn up at swap meets relatively cheap.

Here is some Yella Terra heads, second one is a closed chamber I think so you'd need a bigger cam or pistons with a small dish:
https://www.gumtree.com....ker-rollers-/1170512001
https://www.gumtree.com....-head-holden/1169996339

In the late 60's Dave Bennett (of Perfectune fame) bought a HR 186S 4spd Premier sedan. All he did was change the head to one of his Yella Terra heads, and tuned it properly. The car outsprinted an XR GT Falcon, and did it easily. There was a big write up on it in Motor or Wheels in late 1967. So imagine what you could do with a few more mods and 202 cubic inches!

Edited by user Thursday, 4 January 2018 7:36:43 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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griffo Offline
#6 Posted : Thursday, 4 January 2018 9:21:56 AM(UTC)
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Well David you have it from the pro's...You did the right thing coming to this forum.

HK and The Dr with some of the other lads here know more about Holdens than Holden did.LOL.
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castellan Offline
#7 Posted : Friday, 5 January 2018 10:13:47 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: David 67HR Go to Quoted Post
Which is better to build a performance engine in my HR ute a 202 or a 186


Just what type of performance are you speaking of.
A good stock type or a big cam worked type of thing.
202's have it all over the 186 regardless but a good stock blue motor will flog a stock red even X2 or 186S and a VK EFI kills the lot.

A new 3.3L WB auto ute with 3.08 diff could do 185km/h flat out.

Find a Blue or black block to start with is best for hotting up, the red head can be ported to flow better than the blue black head can.
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HK1837 Offline
#8 Posted : Friday, 5 January 2018 11:50:00 AM(UTC)
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There is no performance gain in using a blue or black block, and to the letter of the law you must comply with the emissions of the WB/VC/VH/VK it came from.

Blue won't fog a HR-HG 186S manual in outright acceleration. In fact a 186S is about the only stock pre blue/black 3.3 Holden 6 powered vehicle outside of GTR or XU1 or 202 powered LJ that could exceed 100mph. The quarter mile times and top speeds for a HK-HG 186S manual are almost the same as a blue 3.3 manual VC-VH, very similar tyre diameter, same (3.36) rear axle ratio, almost the same weight - Commodore has about 60kg weight adavntage. Only the EFI VK engine is significantly quicker.

A HQ 202S would have been closer in performance to a VK EFI engine if the HQ GTS hadn't been canned before HQ production began. You'd expect about 20hp gain on the stock 202's 135hp, as you'd expect a HQ 202S would have got a better exhaust like a HK-HG 186S did.
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KBM Offline
#9 Posted : Friday, 5 January 2018 9:04:06 PM(UTC)
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just throw a V8 in it and we can have a different discussion on which is the best way to go. basics are how much you've got to spend and how far do you want to go. cubic inch rules over nostalgic. paint the 202 red or is it rocket red or any other red. You've changed the original driveline so go for it
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griffo Offline
#10 Posted : Sunday, 7 January 2018 11:16:22 AM(UTC)
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There was some casual talk up in QLD that the rules have all changed regarding charges to the original,i.e.; engine changes 6 cyl to a V8 ect ect.

They have/going to stop the engineer blue plates on vehicles .

I can't find anything stating one way or the otherThink ...Anybody heard this or is it all bs??
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silverJ Offline
#11 Posted : Sunday, 14 January 2018 11:18:28 PM(UTC)
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Hi, just wanted to post my own experience with regard to emissions using a later block/head.
It was mentioned I'd have a problem getting my 73 XU1 passed for re-licencing on GMHT using the triple CD's on
a 8B9 dated, VL prefixed Red 202 block with a 4J9 dated 9937263 9 port YT'd head as they're both ADR27a.
I had a read of NCOP & a AUSVIS bulletin 41 [319(b)] dated 2005 found them a bit ambiguous so emailed the Technical
Section through our DoT (WA) site, gave them the details along with the only mod being extractors & implying along the
lines that the block & head fall into the same "family" of engine castings.
I got a call from a bloke wanting a little more info on the cam, which I replied that nothing more than what was an option
for a 73 XU1 was going to be used, that being the XJ (#391) cam. His response was there'd be no problem with re-licence as
long as it wasn't spewing raw fuel out the exhaust & that even if a Blue engine wouldn't draw too much extra attention if
built & running right.
I wasn't talking to any pimpley young'un either as we had a short chat on other cars we'd owned over the years & him recounting
his run-ins with the law over his L34 in the 80's, about what's legal or not.

So might be worth contacting the Tech section in your state over what's allowable.
J

Edited by user Sunday, 14 January 2018 11:23:18 PM(UTC)  | Reason: spelling error
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HK1837 Offline
#12 Posted : Monday, 15 January 2018 5:55:34 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: silverJ Go to Quoted Post
Hi, just wanted to post my own experience with regard to emissions using a later block/head.
It was mentioned I'd have a problem getting my 73 XU1 passed for re-licencing on GMHT using the triple CD's on
a 8B9 dated, VL prefixed Red 202 block with a 4J9 dated 9937263 9 port YT'd head as they're both ADR27a.
I had a read of NCOP & a AUSVIS bulletin 41 [319(b)] dated 2005 found them a bit ambiguous so emailed the Technical
Section through our DoT (WA) site, gave them the details along with the only mod being extractors & implying along the
lines that the block & head fall into the same "family" of engine castings.
I got a call from a bloke wanting a little more info on the cam, which I replied that nothing more than what was an option
for a 73 XU1 was going to be used, that being the XJ (#391) cam. His response was there'd be no problem with re-licence as
long as it wasn't spewing raw fuel out the exhaust & that even if a Blue engine wouldn't draw too much extra attention if
built & running right.
I wasn't talking to any pimpley young'un either as we had a short chat on other cars we'd owned over the years & him recounting
his run-ins with the law over his L34 in the 80's, about what's legal or not.

So might be worth contacting the Tech section in your state over what's allowable.
J


I had been advised similar about 10 years ago by an Engineer in NSW with regards to my HZ Overlander. The Overlander was pre-ADR27A even though it was a HZ (as it was a 4x4 commercial vehicle), and I was told that despite the laws which said I had to comply with the emissions of the donor engine, I would get away with any QT prefixed 308. However if I fitted a VT or VA etc engine block I'd have to upgrade the emissions on the Overlander. To the letter of the law though I had to use a pre HX block or technically a block that was first registered in a HX or HZ Overlander. However today I don't think it really matters, unless you are unlucky enough to have a full technical inspection of the vehicle.

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