I know this has been discussed before but I feel there still needs to be a few points clarified. There has been much discussion about Holden V8 Chevrolet motor colour and the colour of contention has been what is known as the X2 colour code, or "Holden X2 Engine Red". Now I dont know how many other Holden engines were painted in this colour (it would be interesting to know) but the discussion here only revolves around Type1 and Type2 327. However, as an example there is currently a HQ 350 Coupe on Aust Musclecar Sales with a distinctive red engine, this is what many people I think mistake as Holden X2 Engine Red. I for one dont know the Holden X2 Engine Red colour as it is not listed with a reputable paint shop of any kind, and the 24% lead content would make it impossible to mix.

From my understanding based on previous discussions on this forum Holden X2 Engine Red is very similar to Chevrolet Orange "please correct me if I am wrong". The difference apparently is that Holden X2 Engine Red is slightly more red than the Chevrolet Orange. If this is the case what is the colour on the HQ 350 Coupe called, and I have seen some HK 327 engines painted in this colour, is this simply called Holden Red? I think its important that we distinguish these colours, is it also possible that some HK 327 engines were painted different colours at different plants?

On this point, I understand that all the Type1 and Type2 327 engines were painted in the US and not Australia, so did the Americans have Holden X2 Engine Red in stock, and considering the engines came from different plants (Tonawanda and McKinnon) were they all painted the same colour? Additionally were the gearboxes and bellhousing painted in the US with the engine. In other words were Type1 and Type2 327 engines assembled as a package, engine/gearbox/bellhousing and then shipped to Australia, or were the engines painted in the US shipped to Australia and then the bellhousings and geaboxes bolted on at an Australian plant and then colour matched to the engines? (this one needs another thread)

Now considering these cars are over 50 years old and considering red is one of the most unstable colours for keeping its tint, it is all but impossible to get an exact colour match, yes we can get it off the back of the bellhousing, clutch cover ect, but all these areas are exposed to fumes, dirt, oil, grime and heat so I doubt the colour match would be exact.

My question here is, is it really possible to distinguish between Holden X2 Engine Red (whatever that is) and Chevrolet Orange?

I have an original Type1 327 Engine that came out of a Pagewood assembled GTS 327 that I know has never been disassembled. I have polished the existing bellhousing at the cleanest position and painted a Chevrolet Orange engine enamel little square sample at the centre as seen in the attachments below



I doubt that anyone could pick the difference between the colours. See below another view



Also below is the Duplicolor paint I used



The final picture below is interesting. It seems the entire Engine/Gearbox and bellhousing are all painted the same colour and also that all the bolts are painted. Considering this engine has never been disassembled it seems it was painted as one. Now I have not split the gearbox or bellhousing which I will do in the coming months to investigate if there is any paint between the surfaces which will determine if any of these parts were painted separately or all together as one unit, but from the consistency of the colour throughout it seems it was all painted as one unit.



This than leads to one of three conclusions from my perspective.

1- The engine/Gearbox and bellhousing were all painted in the US and shipped to Australia as one unit
2- The engines and or bellhousings were painted in the US and then the gearbox and or bellhousings were assembled in Australia and painted to match the engine
3- The entire engine/geabox and bellhousings were painted in Australia

I am sure as always there are probably variations between plants and that there was always a possibility for an exchange to be made, for instance one of the geaboxes had to be swapped out for some reason or another at the plant that is why possibly some gearboxes and or bellhousings were not painted, but having an original untouched engine will at least answer some questions.

my first car was a HD X2 manual sedan .. and a few later, I had a HT GTS 350 Manual
and
my recollection (these were just more than a few years ago) on engine paint colours is
... X2 Red was nothing like the 350's Chev Orange

the red was... def red, bright red and the orange, was well... the colour of an orange

and I have no idea about re-finishing these engines and try to match colours

Edited by user Sunday, 21 November 2021 5:13:51 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Colours are a very subjective, but from my memory the HD/HR X2 engine red was very err RED. Holden called it "Rocket Red". The other engines (EH/HD/HR 149, 161, 179 & 186) were painted a darker colour later called Holden Special Red.

Then GM-H confused everybody by calling the HK onwards red "HK Rocket Red" it was far more orange than the older 2 reds. In fact to my eye, many Chev SBCs I've seen don't look much different to the HK Rocket red.

Sorry I can't add anything to the discussion regarding the V8s.

Dr Terry

Going back to HK GTS 327, if the engines were painted in the US does anybody know what colour they using in the US during the periods preceding
and during 1968 to paint Chevrolet Small Block engines?

Is it possible that at some Australian plants the 327 engines were painted a different colour to what was imported? I am only saying this because I have seen two different colour engines in Hk GTS 327, one looks orange and the other much more red like a 179 Red Motor. It seems to me that some restorers may be colour matching their original engine blocks right or wrong, or misinterpreting what information is out there.

A classic example is the following ebay advert


https://www.ebay.com.au/...64f24:g:M8AAAOSwvcBcylbf


This advertisement is for "NEW CORRECT HOLDEN ENGINE PAINT TO HD X2 HR X2 HR 186S 179 X2 186 X2 MOTOSPRAY", if we look at X2 Engine examples on the internet and that as posted by Smitty, the paint being sold as correct X2 Engine Red is nothing like the colour examples of X2 Engines depicted.

What a great thread,

https://fastlane.com.au/...50-engines-for-GMH.aspx

this thread exposes the level of conjecture, confusion or lack of information on this particular subject, I suppose that is synonymous with much of the Holden's information in particular to do with this model (HK GTS 327) as it was something of a revolution for Holden.

Another thread on this forum was arguing what some participants were saying was right or wrong about the engine colour of a GTS 327, in particular a specific car that had a Chevrolet Orange Engine. I suppose as restorers of these machines it is important to have some common ground on what would be considered right or wrong, especially since arguably the greatest minds on the subject are participating on this forum.

The following seems to have some merit

1- Nobody really knows the exact colour of X2 Holden Engine Red
2- There seems to be agreement that is was close to a colour termed as Chevrolet Orange
3- It is stated that some Holden plants may have painted engines and or components another Holden engine Red (thus the differing colours on some GTS 327's that have been concourse restored)
4- 327 engines destined for Australia (including other Chevrolet Engines) were all painted in the US prior to dispatch to Australia, there is some possibility that some may have been sent raw during the transition of Type1 and Type2

So in the risk of sticking my neck out here, I would say that in cases where there is no reference to the original paint drivetrain when restoring a HK GTS 327 it would be absolutely correct to paint the components Chevrolet Orange for a concourse restored car with no possibility of points losses at the Monaro Nationals?

I doubt that Holden painted engine anywhere else but the Fisherman's Bend Engine plant. AFAIK all Aust engines were built, painted & tested as complete assemblies & then shipped to the various assembly plants around the country.

I'm with HK1837, in that most, if not all imported engines came in already painted.

Dr Terry

GMH only painted engines at FBend during my times there... I saw red motors (LX, UC, VB) blue motors (VH, WB) and black (VK)
all painted before engine test and if passed, dropped on a cradle ready for shipping (before going out back to the engine store.. plant 16?)

Any scratches (rockers covers etc) in the VAPs (Dandenong, Elizabeth etc)) were simply ignored, VAPs were only set up to paint panels and trim

I assume that there can be consensus on that we wont really know what happened in the 60's when trying to resolve HK GTS 327 Engine Colour. I also assume we may never know the exact shade of Holden X2 Engine Red, Rocket Red, Holden Red or whatever other red Holden or anyone else chose to call it during this time if it became a factory or society colloquialism i.e. same name different colour.

In addition we may never know the exact shades of Chevrolet Orange or Chevrolet Red used in the US in the 60's and how these colours may have changed whilst the names stayed the same as above.

This is also probably based on factors such as lead content and pigment supplies changing over time, different manufacturers, patination, plant locations, fading over time and during a time when it didn't matter one bit what colour was what, i.e. "Black will do the job", or "that's close enough to the red we are using".

If the gearboxes were painted and bolted onto engines in Australia than there must have been a colour matching process (unless the gearboxes were all painted in the US as well), and Holden would surely not want to call their paints Chevrolet Orange or anything else Chevrolet if it was manufactured here in Australia I am sure.

We have to be mindful that it is very possible that some of the names used in Australia to label paint colours were actually naming US paint colours such as Chevrolet Orange/Chevrolet Red except we may have called it X2 Red or Rocket Red or whatever else a Holden employee or executive decided on the day (same paint different name), I am still talking particularly about HK GTS 327, but I am sure it applies to all the other models during the time.

It only makes sense that the Aussie built V8's HT and up were more consistent and traceable in their colour schemes if we were painting them here and also manufacturing the paints here.

Fast forward to 2000 and something and there are cashed up investors, enthusiasts and speculators paying vast amounts for what could be incorrect examples making it more important than ever that they are correct restorations when looking at investment grade motor vehicles.

How accurate is the 1968 G.M.-H Interior Trim Colours and Engine Colours Card.

One other point to note is this post relates to X2 Holden Engine Red which I was under the impression some GTS 327 guys were using to paint their engines (I may be mistaken). It is important to note that we may have to make distinction between X2 Red and any US products, or decide if they match a US paint product or code.

The best way to do this would be similar to my example, someone with an original paint X2 motor can polish a section somewhere where it is not too faded and do some Chevrolet Orange and Chevrolet Red/Orange comparisons or another colour match in an available shaker can that would be correct and then we will have some examples to compare. Again as in the US we have to be mindful that Holden may have used multiple colours or shades for the same engines, is there only one X2 Red or more than one?

I think 1837 already found 2 x paint codes for Holden X2 Engine Red.