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munriman Offline
#41 Posted : Friday, 26 November 2021 8:47:43 AM(UTC)
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There should be an even better angle, we are not trying to re-invent wheel we are only trying to reinforce it. I am sure that all the judges have solid opinions based on experience and spending a good deal of time looking at good examples, and talking to restorers, enthusiasts and experts. It is obvious that when questions arise regarding these issues, and going back to the level of enthusiasm for these cars and the constantly increasing values there is no wonder we will question more and more what is right or wrong. History can wash out and dilute solid opinions, so it is good practice to re-visit old opinions and put them to the test of time, there is always new evidence.


It is partly because of this that it is important to re-visit the issues that primarily affect us as enthusiasts and it is up to us as a community to coach the judges, or at least coerce them in to what we believe should be the truth. Surely short of the Monaro Nationals, there is no better place than right here to do that.
munriman Offline
#42 Posted : Friday, 26 November 2021 9:01:40 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: munriman Go to Quoted Post
There should be an even better angle, we are not trying to re-invent wheel we are only trying to reinforce it. I am sure that all the judges have solid opinions based on experience and spending a good deal of time looking at good examples, and talking to restorers, enthusiasts and experts. It is obvious that when questions arise regarding these issues, and going back to the level of enthusiasm for these cars and the constantly increasing values there is no wonder we will question more and more what is right or wrong. History can wash out and dilute solid opinions, so it is good practice to re-visit old opinions and put them to the test of time, there is always new evidence.


It is partly because of this that it is important to re-visit the issues that primarily affect us as enthusiasts and it is up to us as a community to coach the judges, or at least coerce them in to what we believe should be the truth. Surely short of the Monaro Nationals, there is no better place than right here to do that.


My apologies, I my single mindedness said Monaro Nationals, it is of course much broader than Monaro's
castellan Offline
#43 Posted : Friday, 26 November 2021 2:38:35 PM(UTC)
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I thought that EH, HD, HR Red was all one colour fire engine Red and this has got the lead in the paint. it's dark sort of Red, and I have never seen such repainted that colour again.

The HD X2, HR X2and 186S are the same colour and HK, HT, HG 186S are all one colour ? now the HD, HR X2 may of had lead in the paint ? and the 186S no lead ?

The 6cyl HK HT HG are all one colour.

The 6CYL HQ is another colour with more of a touch of pink to it.

The HJ, HX, HZ and VB is the same as the HQ only that this has a clear coat on them that always peeled off the paint first.


I remember lining up my HR 186 and my sisters HK 186 and dads HQ 173 and my mums HJ 202 all with bonnet's up back in 1978. all had the original engines un touched. and all were a different colour in fact clearly.

I can not remember seeing an original X2 or 186S or a GTR 161S or GTR 173S to prove such for a fact.

The Blue motors clear coat peeled off as well, the black ?

I believe the Chev v8 were all one colour Red much like the HK 6cyl but a bit darker and that the HQ 350 was lighter Red to Orange colour. and the 1978-9 c20 chev 6cyl was a lighter red much like a HQ. if I remember correctly.
Smitty2 Offline
#44 Posted : Friday, 26 November 2021 6:27:38 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
I .................

The Blue motors clear coat peeled off as well, the black ?

.........


Blue motors (and black) had no clear coat... only glossy semi-gloss

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HK1837 Offline
#45 Posted : Friday, 26 November 2021 6:45:42 PM(UTC)
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It was HJ when they started with the clear all over the engine and engine bay. As Smitty says I don't think it continued into WB as they didn't have a satin finish black engine bay.
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#46 Posted : Friday, 26 November 2021 7:50:23 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Smitty2 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
I .................

The Blue motors clear coat peeled off as well, the black ?

.........


Blue motors (and black) had no clear coat... only glossy semi-gloss



I was told years ago, 60% gloss.
The Commodore SL/E fanatic.
munriman Offline
#47 Posted : Friday, 26 November 2021 8:30:34 PM(UTC)
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Please see attached paint samples from KBS Coatings. Please note that these colours look different on every singe computer screen. These samples are only to provide a perspective between the three Holden colours provided by KBS.

The red one on the left is called Holden Bright Red, the burgundy one in the middle is called Holden Red and you guested it the orange one on the right is called Rocket Red



KBS does not warrant any of these colours as an exact match for something that was painted 50 years ago, but it gives us some idea of three colour samples that represent Holden engine colours.
WagonDan Offline
#48 Posted : Saturday, 27 November 2021 3:34:58 PM(UTC)
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I'm back, with some interesting results 😊


The below 4 pictures are of my Sydney assembled 1967 Special Wagon.
They were taken with the Wagon outside, so plenty of natural light.

Taking into account 54 years of hot/cold/dirt/grime I would almost swear that Chevrolet Orange was the correct colour....if not, then extremely close.







These next 4 pictures, are of our friends Melbourne assembled 1966 Utility.
Unfortunately, it was tucked away inside the garage so only got the flash of my tablet.

In my opinion, it's almost certainly a different colour to the "Chevy Orange" thermo housing.
And therefore a different colour to my Special Wagon's engine...?






Perhaps the natural light gives my engine abit more "vibrancy", or the different assembly plant/assembly year make some sort of difference?

Both vehicles have between 100-110 thousand original miles, so reasonably even on that side of things.



Hopefully this provides abit of help 😎
munriman Offline
#49 Posted : Saturday, 27 November 2021 4:51:16 PM(UTC)
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What great information. Not that it's a revelation that Holden may have been painting engines in slightly different colours at different plants, wbut it does sort of reinforce the idea that Holden was possibly buying paint from local suppliers and not from a central source. It also seems that Holden was copying GM at the time regarding the bright orange engine colour for the performance engines, I.e. trying to get close to a Chevy Orange colour. This may be reinforced further by HK GTS 327 because it seems Pagewood had Chevrolet Orange or something very close on their 327 engines, and although unlikely it's possible that other plants may have painted their 327 engines a different red which I am trying to find out. I will have some more samples and original paint 186S comparisons this week for more references.
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#50 Posted : Saturday, 27 November 2021 5:42:05 PM(UTC)
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Engines were painted when they got here and all local engines painted at Fisherman’s Bend. If there are colour variations it will come down to variations between drums or thinning ratio or the actual painter. Or even the quality of the thinners. Remember they were mass produced engines and GMH would have been happy with close enough.
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Smitty2 on 28/11/2021(UTC)
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#51 Posted : Sunday, 28 November 2021 11:51:56 AM(UTC)
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I don’t know if this will help in any way but I found this Red Motor paint formula amongst my early paint colours.
2 pack for red motor #0013 500ml.
D709 615.5
D700 676.1
D706 701.1
D703 713.6
Someone may know what they mean ??. AL.

munriman Offline
#52 Posted : Sunday, 28 November 2021 7:25:46 PM(UTC)
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I am going to attempt some form of summary and explanation.

Although I am waiting on some paint from KBS Coatings and also want to do some more comparisons on a mates original paint 186S, for me at all started with “what the &*^%$ is Holden X2 Engine Red”?

Because rightly or wrongly I was told that HK GTS 327 engines were painted Holden X2 Engine Red and also that X2 motors were painted this colour I went on a quest to find it, however no matter where I searched I could not find a paint company that could produce a code for this colour name.

KBS Coatings in Sydney is an example and Autolac Newcastle is the same, they don’t have any listings for Holden X2 Engine Red under this name.

The only thing I could find was a shaker can sold as X2 Red on Ebay which is nothing like my 327 or the original paint examples Dan has been kind enough to present, so the colour code for Holden X2 Engine Red and exact colour match is an on-going mystery.

Maybe that’s the way its going to stay, Dans has two differing shades of original paint examples and we know from other members input that there is probably many different shades based on issues such as painter mixing the paint, thinners, pigment, suppliers etc, not to mention the differing ageing of original paint example cars.

We went full circle with HK1837 providing invaluable information on the production line processes and company procedures here and in America giving insight into the difficulty of truly identifying exact colour shades. Like has been said before, we will never have certainty of the exact process these companies undertook in the 60’s, but we still do have original paint examples to compare.

For me it was always whether or not I could find an off the shelf product (shaker can) that would get me over the line should I decide to show my car. I for one didn’t want people saying nice car but the motor is the wrong colour, what triggered me was another thread on this forum some years ago where it was exactly that discussion, see the link below

https://www.fastlane.com...s-for-152-000-00.aspx?=

With this in mind, I went to the local Supercheap and picked up a can of Chevy Orange and to my amazement it was an all but exact match. That was where the mission started to find out if Chevy Orange was the same as Holden X2 Engine Red and here we are running this thread.

I am going to put it out there that based on the original paint example of my 327 and Dans 186 X2 that if anyone went down to their local Supercheap Auto and bought a can of Duplicolor Chevrolet Orange DE1620 and painted their engine then there would be no argument regarding the correct colour for their X2, HKGTS 327 and at this stage looks to be 186S.

I will some colour match comparison with KBS Coatings Rocket Red and Duplicolor Chevrolet Orange, get a few more examples of original paint motors and hopefully we will have some consensus.
WagonDan Offline
#53 Posted : Monday, 29 November 2021 3:35:20 PM(UTC)
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That sounds pretty good to me 👍


What annoys me, is that it's proven my Premier X2 engine to be the incorrect colour, which I painted 4-5 years ago.


Might have to yank it out and throw some Chevy Orange over it 😊
munriman Offline
#54 Posted : Wednesday, 1 December 2021 6:13:32 PM(UTC)
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I have now done some samples of the KBS Rocket Red and some comparisons of this paint to the Duplicolor Paint Cans and also my original paint 327 Engine. The outcome is no real surprise, I have tried to photograph all of these colour in the best light situation to show the shades, but from my point the Duplicolor Chevrolet Orange still looks to be the closest match

Below is a sample board of the four colours, the two top colours are the Duplicolor Chevrolet Orange at the top followed by the Duplicolour Chevrolet Orange Red underneath, then the third one down is the KBS Rocket Red which is the same colour as the Duplicolor Chevrolet Orange Red and then the bottom colour is what is advertised on ebay as X2 Red.



Below is the paint can from KBS known as Rocket Red



I have added below a few pictures of my bellhousing, the first picture shows a KBS Rocket Red and Duplicolor Chevrolet Orange Comparison



The rest of these photographs are of my oil pump housing, various angles and colours, but looking at it in person the chevrolet Orange is the closest.



The final photo below is of the head, again Chevy orange vs Rocket Red



I would say that if anyone painted their GTS 327 engines Duplicolour Chevrolet Orange, Duplicolour Chevrolet Orange Red, or KBS Rocket Red averyone would have a hard time seeing the difference, unless they were side by side.
Smitty2 Offline
#55 Posted : Wednesday, 1 December 2021 6:45:13 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: WagonDan Go to Quoted Post
That sounds pretty good to me 👍


What annoys me, is that it's proven my Premier X2 engine to be the incorrect colour, which I painted 4-5 years ago.


Might have to yank it out and throw some Chevy Orange over it 😊



don't.... it is not orange

found the sales brochure I got when I got my HD (yes, it was used but I knew the DP where i bought the car)
NOTHING orange about this... it supports my first comment on this thread X2 red is RED



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RigPig Offline
#56 Posted : Monday, 6 December 2021 12:04:53 AM(UTC)
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I went through all of this a year or two back.

Saginaw gearboxes were supplied to GMH in bare metal and each plant did their own thing with them.
Dandenong left theirs bare metal while other plants used Rocket Red and others may have used X2 or whatever they had laying about.

The engine paint.
GM called it Red Engine Enamel from the late 1950's through to the mid 70's.
The US paint code for a very long time was PPG/Ditzler 60339 and Ditzlers description was red/orange.
In the early 70's PPG started to called it Orange Engine Enamel, same code.
Everyone else calls it Chevy Orange.

Apparently one of the Duplicolor engine enamels either DE1607 or DE1620 is a very close match to GM Red Engine Enamel (Chevy orange)
I cant remember which one but looks like you're onto it.

The original paint on my engine is so thin its transparent in many areas and those thin areas have turned as orange as a carrot.
The areas where the paint is thickest and received less heat (top of the bell housing) the paint is still red and in very good condition.
Its all the same paint job but the heat has turned most of it bright orange so the engine block is the worst place to get an accurate sample.
The bellhousing is the only place.

I decided a while ago GM Red Engine Enamel PPG/Ditzler 60339 (Chevy Orange) is exactly the same as GMH X2 Engine Red.
Others will disagree but I think you'll come to the same conclusion.
I just got my bell housing colour matched in an oil based enamel.

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RigPig Offline
#57 Posted : Monday, 6 December 2021 12:18:52 AM(UTC)
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The DE1607 is the red-orange and DE1620 is less red
I didnt use them.

Wayne
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munriman Offline
#58 Posted : Monday, 6 December 2021 8:51:59 PM(UTC)
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Hi Rigpig, thank you for the information and pics of your bellhousing.

That X2 swatch shown in your pics, which publication is that from? Would be interesting to do some comparisons on that colour code. The Duplicolour 1620 Chevrolet Orange is the closest I can find for a colour match to my engine, and it is similar if not the same in multiple areas or my engine, bellhousing and gearbox, it also seems based on my engine that Holden was matching gearbox paint quite well at Pagewood.

The most interesting comment you make is that parts of your engine turned carrot orange after time, this is consistent with a mates 186S engine, not so sure if modern paints would do the same (fade). Red pigment does not like UV, and quite possibly heat depending on what was used as a pigment to create the red. On the 186S the water pump pulley has turned almost pink.

It would be great to come to a conclusion or at least some ballpark. I would say that we would have to treat 327 separately as I am assuming now they were all painted in America. After that it would be great to have colour codes for the other engines based on a timeline and possibly plant locations, although it is said most Holden engines were manufactured/assembled at Fishermans Bend.

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#59 Posted : Tuesday, 7 December 2021 6:30:32 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: munriman Go to Quoted Post
After that it would be great to have colour codes for the other engines based on a timeline and possibly plant locations, although it is said most Holden engines were manufactured/assembled at Fishermans Bend.


AFAIK ALL (not most) Holden engines, except those imported from overseas, were manufactured/assembled at Fishermans Bend. Those facilities simply don't exist at other plants in Australia.

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#60 Posted : Tuesday, 7 December 2021 10:04:38 AM(UTC)
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Yes all 327 engines fitted to Holden or Statesman were 100% painted in America, North America to be exact. The bulk of SBC design engines used in these cars, probably in the ballpark of 95% of them were assembled and painted in Canada. Only a small amount came from the USA from a Chevrolet engine plant, and that is the approx 750 GTS327 engines, the few hundred auto HT-HG 350 engines and maybe the first 700 or so manual HT-HG 350. All of the rest of the tens of thousands of 307 in HK-HG, 350 in HQ and the final batches of HK 327 plus HG 350 manual were Canadian engines. If you add in the GMH 1968 full size vehicles that is another few thousand Chevrolet (USA) engines. Prior to 1968 they are somewhat odd but appear to be generally Canadian engine plant assembled engines but with some parts sourced from Chevrolet engines plants in the USA and others from the Canadian foundry.

My guess is if there were colour variations along the way it will simply come down to a combination of different paint suppliers, different care factor of the painter and the fact they were just an engine.
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