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HR X2 repacement Nasco engine prefix
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Mike81973 Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, 7 July 2013 10:14:50 PM(UTC)
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Hello all, can anyone please tell me what prefix was allocated to the HR X2 when the NP NK etc numbers started ( early 71? )

I understand that in all likelyhood that prior to 1971 186 bare blocks could have been used for build ups, and probably 186S as complete replacements from the assembly line.

I am specifically asking if anyone knows the HR X2 Nasco replacement short motor prefix for the 1971 - 1972 period?
Do you think it may have been alaphabetical?
IE; NK 1971-2 XU-1, NL & NP LJ XU-1 1972- 74.
what letter do you think they would have used for the earlier engines, "J" like in apendix J racing?


Hope you can help?
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HK1837 Offline
#2 Posted : Sunday, 7 July 2013 10:22:37 PM(UTC)
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If one existed Mike it would have stayed as 186N, same as 186P replacement. I don't know how they distinguished between 186L, 186P or 186K replacements, but the same happened with high comp 202's ie Nasco/GMP&A NL prefix covered HQ-HZ, VB, LJ and LH-UC and amongst those there was 3 x different sump configurations and a few different camshafts. I doubt GMH supplied a replacement X2 engine after 1971 either, the cars were out of warranty and the aftermarket probably looked after such things eg Repco etc.
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Mike81973 Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, 8 July 2013 10:58:24 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for the reply,
As I understand it the differences are 1. the camshafts, 2 bearing durability, 3. crankshaft type, Iron cranks were not supplied as replacements for X2 or for 186 K or 186S.
Sumps are not part of the equasion for short motors of course.

At this point it is very important to recognise what a replacement engine is and how many ways this could be achieved.
1. A bare block to build up ( no engine number supplied as it suited several models and performance characteristics.
2. A short motor, this included the bottom half, no head, no sump, no flywheel etc, these did have a NASCO number indicating their model suitability and performance.
3.
A complete engine from the engine assembly line, I understand for the engine sizes we are refering, this was not an option in early times and probably only came into being in the 1968 - 9 era.
These would not have included the starter or alternator etc.

A replacement HR X2 and 186P ( 186S too )short motor could not have been a 186N at all. (186N probably started as the 186A replacement.)
In your reply the prefix surely could not have stayed at 186N for X2 equally as this did not exist during the HR X2 period to the best of my knowlege, the 186N did not start until about 1970 ( a few years latter )
As you will know the 186 was still being produced after the production of the HQ too.

Each replacement had different durability characteristics and different performance including 1- 3 above.

The whole point of having different prefixs was to be able to detirmine the difference between replacements ( and supply the correct type ) The earliest NASCO ( N type engine ) I have details of is from Aug 1970, this matches exactly the release of the LC XU-1.

As far as 186S replacements, I have a 186N ****S here which may fit, as oppossed to a straight 186N****

In regard to the original question, I also have an engine here ( two letter prefix starting with N ) which I believe may be a HR X2 replacement in 1972.
What would you expect the prefix to be?
Obviously it stands to reason that it may have a prefix earlier than NK, NL, NM and NP in this order.

The release dates of these ( two letter ) NK NP etc prefixes appear to have began,in July 1971.
It was just ( single letter ) 186N type numbers before this.
In reflection of the dates of the models the NK Aug 1971, NL July 1971 for both HQ and LJ Torana ( indicating sump & externals not included ) NP Feb 1972 for LJ XU-1
I repeat my question can anyone tell me what letter prefix would have been used for the HR X2 in the 1971 - 2 period?

Edited by user Monday, 8 July 2013 11:13:22 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#4 Posted : Monday, 8 July 2013 11:59:35 PM(UTC)
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I answered your original question Mike, 186N is the only logical answer. Replacements for pre HQ era engines stayed as they were prior to HQ. 186N, 308N, 253N etc. The only unknown is what the S means on the end, it is most likely either S for SHORT or S for SERVICE, it does not mean 186S as I have seen both 308N and 253N with the S. 186N is definitely the replacement prefix for 186 HK-HG engines, so not sure where your statement this cannot be the case comes from. It is most likely the replacement engine code for HR engines supplied in the late 60's, but again unless the engine or short was built for order how (other than a tag attached to the engine) one knew if it was a 186A, 186P, 186K, 186L or 186P engine replacement - again this was exactly the same situation as HQ onwards Nasco/GMP&A engines.
There does not appear to be any distinguishing between for example HL for different cam and sumps (hence application), so I doubt there was any difference prior to that either, so it is totally logical that any 186 replacement got 186N. Complete engines and short motors would have had the same prefix. There is no mythical puzzle here Mike, for HQ engines onwards it is simply a matter of replacing the first letter with an N. There was no post HQ replacement engine number for anything prior to HQ engines, so there will be no Nx for a 186K. The only time you'll find a post HQ Hasco/GMP&A engine supplied as a replacement for an early model will be when substitution occurs, eg NP or NK for 3100X. If engines were required post HQ release they kept their original style numbering, I have documented 308N engines cast in 1972 used for warranty replacement on HG's.
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Mike81973 Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, 9 July 2013 11:42:19 PM(UTC)
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Thanks for your explanation, however we do not seem to be understanding each other.
Can I please ask you to put aside all preconcieved notions of how things "ARE" and look at this from a different angle?

By a process of elimination if we go through the alphabet to see what two letter prefix could possibly have been used for the NASCO X2 replacement prefix, but I will start from the 1963 beginning "not the end"

This is my understading;
S4 had a M prefix engine without any differnt prefix, but a number range. ( think it is right )after 1966 186N could have replaced the base 179, however this is unclear to me, for if the S4 had performance improvements, this would not match.
HD had 179F as a Special and Premier engine and X2 had 179X not sure what replacement NASCO or if NASCO even existed then.
It is quite clear that the X2 had an altered grind cam and some other changes so while a 186N short motor would OK for a 179F replacement after 1966 it would be clearly wrong for a X2.
In any case my question was, what would the X2 NASCO prefix be when the new two didgit prefixes started in 1971?
HR 186A was for the Special and Premier models and the NASCO replacement for these will likely have been the 186N ( if these were made at this time )as you indicate, however this was not what I asked, I asked what was the replacement two letter prefix for a HR X2 ie a NASCO replacement for the 186K in the 1971 - 2 period?
HK Kingswood & PremierI accept that the 186N would likely continue on into the HK-T era as replacements for the 186P if in fact such a NASCO replacement existed before the HK.

Again the 186N before 1971 would be wrong as the 186S replacement as it had different performance componets fitted and therefore was not compatable to 186N.
At this early time the replacement for a 186S must have been something else other than the standard performance 186N, perhaps like I said 186N****S Holden would not down grade the performance for the 186S Monaro, There would have been some "irate" customers especially after going to great expense to replace the engine only to find that it lacked performance, ( of course this did not happen ). There were also other changes than just a WW Stromberg and hedders, again the cam was a different grind making any engine replacement distincly different.
( can you please confirm for me that there were two different 186N replacment 186N****S and straight 186N**** )or do I have this wrong?

HK - T -G replacement after 1971 I am not sure on, and this was not the focus of my question.

To go through a process of elimination through the alaphabet to detirmine the most likely prefix for a HR X2 ( 186K NASCO replacement ) we will start from the beginning.
Second letter prefix identification for the 1971 - 4 period specifically.

A used for the 130 LC / LJ Torana
B used for the 138 LJ Torana
C used for the 138 LJ Torana
D used for the LJ 173 Torana
E used for the LJ 173 Torana
F used for the LC GTR 173 Torana G not sure about this one ?
H used for the 161 LC / early LJ SL Torana and other engines. I NOT USED as this could be confused with numbers. J not sure about this one?
K used for the 1971 XU-1 NASCO replacement.
L used for both the HQ and LJ NASCO replacement apparently.
M used for the HQ to HX 202 Holden low compression version. O NOT USED so it would not get confised with a number.
P used as the LJ XU-1 replacement initally then a system of Nasco NP and numbers were used to distinguish different XU-1 models appart. Q Not used as far as know.
R Used for the 253 replacement not to be confused with aditionally R stamped blocks. S not sure without looking up.
T 308 Holdens.
U, V, W, X, Y, Z I don't know about.

I will not go into late engine prefixes or we will be here all day.

Now I know you do not agree, but please inducge me here,
I please ask you to look through my list and pick which prefixs were not used? Answer; the I, O and J were not used, the I and O are generally not used for reasons of confusion with numbers, this leaves the G, J and
perhsps S.
So to me the most lodical 186K NASCO replacement prefix would have been either NG or NJ, what do you think?

The Bedford vans used a different prefix too, but I can't recall what this was, can you please tell me?

Your reply about the models covered by the NL prefix is a clear indication to me by the different sumps that the NASCO replacement were not full engine build ups but short motors only.
This does conflict with the different pollution cams etc, and this would change replacements considerably.
According to Norm Darwin the late pollution engines had different prefixes, how do you explain this in the context of replacement Nasco NL engines?
I also understand that NASCO ceased to exist in the mid to late 70's too so this will have had a bearing on things also wouldn't it?
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#6 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 1:55:40 AM(UTC)
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Mike

You aren't getting what i'm saying. There would be no 2 letter prefix issued for NASCO replacement engines or short motors that didn't originally have a 2 letter prefix. 186N, 253N, 308N etc were still used for replacement engines for pre HQ vehicles after HQ engine release. There was no change. Some cars that previously may have got a 2250N or a 3100X probably got an NB or NK as CB and CK were valid prefixes used later in that series (in this case LC). There also would be no real need for a replacement engine for a HR X2 in 1971, cars were well out of warranty and I seriously doubt GMH could have easily supplied an S/X2 spec 186 engine in 1972-ish anyway - forged crankshafts were stockpiled as it was past mid 1967. And if for some reason one was required they'd simply have to have used 186N, it is 100% logical that this would be the case as using 202 as an example, all long and short 202 high comp replacement engines regardless of whether they were for an LJ, HQ, HX, VB Commodore, LH-UC etc got the same prefix ie NL. I don't think GMH really cared if the replacement engine was different, all they cared was the correct capacity made it onto the replacement engine and the customer got the engine they ordered. There must have been other identifiers (eg paperwork) with the long or short engine eg pollution 202 auto engines had a significantly bigger cam than manuals as the replacements all got NL. Note that short engines (at least) did come in a crate with part number and engine number written on it, so perhaps the part number was the only identifier actually needed.

As before the S on the end of a 186N must mean either SHORT or SERVICE. All engines of this type i've seen to date ie 186N, 253N and 308N have all had that S. The first one I saw was a 186N....S and I too thought the S must mean S as in 186S but when I found the 308 and 253 engines the same I realised it could not have been the case. I suspect both 253H and 253L replacement engines/shorts would both be 253N as well, and there would be paperwork or a tag with the engine to state whether it was high or low compression (pistons are different like a 186 or 202). The fact 2600N engines are also known to exist as supplied as warranty replacements for LC GTR is further proof that 2600N would be used for a replacement prefix for 2600H, 2600L and 2600S - there must have been some other identifier with the engine or short so the right one was used, again most likely the crate witha part number and engine number on it.

Post HQ prefixes:

A-E used for HQ on and HG, also in LC/LJ and some in LH-UC, capacito\ies as you state.
F unique to 2850S engine in LC.
G not used as it clashed with HG engines (GD, GE, GM, GL).
H not used as it clashed with LH.
I as you atate.
J not used as it clashed with LJ.
K used for post HQ release LC XU-1 and VK.
L used for HQ-HZ, LH-LX, LJ, CF Bedford, VB-VK Commodore, WB.
M low comp 202 in HQ-WB, can't remember in used in LH-UC and VB.
N not used as it would clash with Nasco numbers.
O not used as you state.
P LJ XU-1, all varieties.
Q not used as it clashed with HQ.
R is 253 in HQ-WB, LH-LX, VB-VH
S is low comp 253 used in HQ-HZ, LH-LX and Bedford
T is 308 in HQ-WB, LH-LX, VB-VK
U is HQ 350
V is low comp 308 in Bedford
W not used as it would have clashed with WA
X and Y never used
Z used for L34.

The only one they seemed to stuff up using a double prefix was on was LC with a low comp 138 ie CC, probably an unavoidable legacy of LC starting with LC engines and getting 2250L but swapping to HQ engines not far from the end and copping CC.

Replacement high comp 202's were all NL regardless of short or long engines, sumps had no bearing on the prefix if a long engine. An NL engine would be supplied for an LJ or a HQ, they simply would have supplied the engine to suit the car and it got a unique engine number from the Nasco sequence. There was no change made in prefix for pollution engines, they all stayed the same. The HQ number sequence reached 999999 in late 1978 so it reset again to 1001 and the Q was replaced with a Z but that has no bearing on Nasco (by that time GMP&A, but again didn't change anything) numbers, same thing happened. A replacement red 202 for a VB Commodore still got NL followed by the next number available in the Nasco sequence which by that stage was up around 13,000 or something like that. GMP&A prefixes changed for blue and black engines, N became N5.

Bedfords were all different depending upon which Bedford. CF used F, so a CF 173 was FE, and just used a HQ sequence number.
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Mike81973 Offline
#7 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 5:46:09 AM(UTC)
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Thanks for clearing up the S thing with the early NASCO replacements, all my reseach so far just confirms that these Nasco numbers refer to short Motors, not complete engines.
I had not heard of a 186N, 252N type replacement after 1971.

I have two engines here that appear to have been fitted with stock piled earlier cranks, but as these were cast at an earlier date than the block it is impossible to know if this has been changed by a later rebuild or not.
There seems to be some overlap between the 308N you speak of and a 186 NASCO replacement short motor I have here also cast Mid 1972

We will have to disagree also that the NASCO replacemnt was actually anything else other than a SHORT motor, as you say this is probably where the "S" comes from.
A similar situation exists with the additional "R" that some engines have, this appears on 161, 202NP and QR 253 engines which I have access to.
My conclusion here is that this means "REPLACEMENT" this seems to be confirmed by a 253 I have here it is QR ******R, does not stand for Racing as few 161s were raced.

I have a great deal of difficulty accepting that completely different NASCO short motors would be supplied as interchangable units for any model, Monaro to Kingswood.
I understand that early pre 1971 engines used different heads to get different compressions ( though I haven't looked it up. )
However the HQ ( 1971 on ) engines used different pistons, surely they had different prefixes to signify this? QL v/s QM and NL v/s NM.
I do have a QM here and it had different compression pistons.
the reason we have not seen any low compression NASCO replacements is probably because no one wanted one, so they would be extremely rare!

I have no argument that the 186N****$ was the replacement for the HK - G, the point I was making was that because the 186S 186K and CK XU-1 engine all differ in performanc componets, from the HK - G 186 they could not possibly be supplied as interchangable, if you read Norm Darwins book, page 290 of "Torana Tough" you will see that the NASCO engine number was stamped according to engine specification.
NOW to change the subject entirely if we consider the block and Piston sets this is a completely different situation and considering that there was no seperate compression type pistons then all these 186A, 186K, 186P, 186S and CK 186 will have all had interchangable block and piston sets. The HK 186 block and piston replacements of all types from the HK 1972 parts book is 2818318.

Getting on to the NL replacements, if a change took place whereby Holden stopped supplying camshafts with Short Motors for the Pollution models then this could account for the NL being used in late models, have you actually seen one of these late NL replacement short motors? Readers please do not confuse short motors, block and piston sets, and replacement engines as they are all distinctly different and could have different origins.

You draw a similarity between 186 replacements and 202 replacements and this isn't right, I admit some will be similar, there are also those that are distinctly different too, which means all 202s pre HJ were definately not interchangable.
For a start there were at least three different pistons for 202 and if we stretch this to 1975, make that 4 sets.
The HQ -Z high compression engines all had the same pistons, however the Low Compression HQ -Z 202 had deeper dished pistons I believe, perhaps some one can look up the part number for me as I don't have that book.
Then there is the XU-1 pistons and while these were the same till mid 1973, after this time the pistons had been upgraded after the numerous 1972 XU-1 engine blow ups, and by 1975 when they eventually printed the parts books the piston part number had changed again because of further Aug 1973 engine blow ups. So, No all 202 Block and piston sets were not the same.

As far as replacement engines after warranty finished this could explain why I have not heard of a replacement XU-1 short motor later than Aug 1974 almost exactly 12 months after engine production for these finished.
But this does not account for why I have a 1972 186 NASCO replacement here, unless this was a replacement for a HG Commercial this would match the time frame but the prefix harks back to the 1966 67 pre Nasco CK engine XU-1 era.
I was hoping that you would have a guess at what prefix would fit as I have done the hard work in my previous post.

As far as a "mythical puzzle" is concerned I may have to explain again, what I wanted to know is what prefix issued in 1972 would apply to a 1966 - 67 era Nasco replacement, ( not 186N ) this crosses the 186N and post 1971 era so makes the situation different as it has no single digit 186N type prefix and has the later two letter Nasco prefix, hope I explained it better this time?
from what you say about your 1972 308N there may have been some overlap between N and NK type replacements, was the 308N you talk of early in 1972 or late?
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#8 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 6:20:22 AM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike81973

A similar situation exists with the additional "R" that some engines have, this appears on 161, 202NP and QR 253 engines which I have access to.
My conclusion here is that this means "REPLACEMENT" this seems to be confirmed by a 253 I have here it is QR ******R, does not stand for Racing as few 161s were raced.

I have a great deal of difficulty accepting that completely different NASCO short motors would be supplied as interchangable units for any model, Monaro to Kingswood.
I understand that early pre 1971 engines used different heads to get different compressions ( though I haven't looked it up. )
However the HQ ( 1971 on ) engines used different pistons, surely they had different prefixes to signify this? QL v/s QM and NL v/s NM.

I have no argument that the 186N****$ was the replacement for the HK - G, the point I was making was that because the 186S 186K and CK XU-1 engine all differ in performanc componets, from the HK - G 186 they could not possibly be supplied as interchangable, if you read Norm Darwins book, page 290 of "Torana Tough" you will see that the NASCO engine number was stamped according to engine specification.
NOW to change the subject entirely if we consider the block and Piston sets this is a completely different situation and considering that there was no seperate compression type pistons then all these 186A, 186K, 186P, 186S and CK 186 will have all had interchangable block and piston sets. The HK 186 block and piston replacements of all types from the HK 1972 parts book is 2818318.

Getting on to the NL replacements, if a change took place whereby Holden stopped supplying camshafts with Short Motors for the Pollution models then this could account for the NL being used in late models, have you actually seen one of these late NL replacement short motors? Readers please do not confuse short motors, block and piston sets, and replacement engines as they are all distinctly different and could have different origins.

You draw a similarity between 186 replacements and 202 replacements and this isn't right, I admit some will be similar, there are also those that are distinctly different too, which means all 202s pre HJ were definately not interchangable.
For a start there were at least three different pistons for 202 and if we stretch this to 1975, make that 4 sets.
The HQ -Z high compression engines all had the same pistons, however the Low Compression HQ -Z 202 had deeper dished pistons I believe, perhaps some one can look up the part number for me as I don't have that book.
Then there is the XU-1 pistons and while these were the same till mid 1973, after this time the pistons had been upgraded after the numerous 1972 XU-1 engine blow ups, and by 1975 when they eventually printed the parts books the piston part number had changed again because of further Aug 1973 engine blow ups. So, No all 202 Block and piston sets were not the same.

As far as replacement engines after warranty finished this could explain why I have not heard of a replacement XU-1 short motor later than Aug 1974 almost exactly 12 months after engine production for these finished.
But this does not account for why I have a 1972 186 NASCO replacement here, unless this was a replacement for a HG Commercial this would match the time frame but the prefix harks back to the 1966 67 pre Nasco CK engine XU-1 era.
I was hoping that you would have a guess at what prefix would fit as I have done the hard work in my previous post.

As far as a "mythical puzzle" is concerned I may have to explain again, what I wanted to know is what prefix issued in 1972 would apply to a 1966 - 67 era Nasco replacement, ( not 186N ) this crosses the 186N and post 1971 era so makes the situation different as it has no single digit 186N type prefix and has the later two letter Nasco prefix, hope I explained it better this time?
from what you say about your 1972 308N there may have been some overlap between N and NK type replacements, was the 308N you talk of early in 1972 or late?


I've tried to address paragraph bby paragraph.

R is repeat. QRxxxxxR simply has the R as the number was repeated, so an R was used so the engine didn't have to be scrapped. This is well documented in GMH literature.

186 low compression HT-HG engines used a different piston to get a low compression engine, so do 202. It was only the small engines (up to 173) that used H and L heads. The replacement engine or short motor for this low comp 186L or the high comp 186P or the 186S would all be 186N. Same way 2600N would be used for 2600S, 2600H and 2600L. The engines or short motors were never interchangeable, they all had different part numbers.

The later engines did use NM, NE etc, but it is quite obvious the early ones didn't, there is no scope in the engine numbers to do it and all evidence of engines of this kind found so far back this up 100% ie 186N, 253N, 308N, 2600N and 3100N. There is no assertion that all Nasco replacement 186N engines or shorts are interchangeable, as they definitely are not, Hasco simply did not put any distinguishing features in their engine numbers to tell them apart, the part number must have done that, or some sort of tag.

That section of Norm's book has a lot of errors and misinformation in it, so quoting that doesn't really help you.

Again not all 186 engiens are the same, 186L uses low comp pistons like a low comp 202.

NL was used for short or long 202HC engines (ie not 202LC or XU1), they all differ along the way from minor changes like rear main seal to camshaft changes to cylinder head changes. They all use NL. That is how it was. The part number would have looked after the differences and application.

The 1972 Nasco replacement you have will be either an NK (to replace a CK) or a 186N to replace a 186P or 186S or 186L. The last 186's outside of XU1 would have been sold new by mid 1971. The number used on it will not be in the HQ Nasco sequence though unless it is and NK.

There is no reason for a 2 letter Nasco code for a 186 other than NK. 186N (or something like that if you don't like 186N) would have been used.


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#9 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 7:26:53 AM(UTC)
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Hello again,
The two letter 1972 NASCO 186 engine I have here is neither a 186N nor a NK, and alphabetically is earlier than the NK so I think it relates to an earlier date model.
It was definately built later than 1971 because it has the later machining of Main bearings consistent with the engine machine line changes from 1971, so no mix up with the cast date, it is quite clear.

As far as I can work out there must only be two or three possibilities of what it is, and was hoping to narrow it down to a most likely option as no documentation seems to exist as to which model it was intended.

It seems can only be for a 186 engined model before the release of the 202, so this makes it for a model no later than 1971 and going by the early prefix I thought it was the 1966 -7 era.
The other possibility might be a warranty replacement for a HG Commercial of 1971, ( was made within this warranty period ) but I would have thought that this still would be 186P, does anyone know what the two prefix letters would be for the NASCO replacement for a HG ute or panel van in the 1972 period?
I understand that some warranty replacements may have been 202 due to difficulty obtaining 186 replacements during the engine line re-configuring period.
Hence perhaps the reason for the Holden bulletin that they would continue to supply 186 after the HQ change over.

You talk of a 186L as a low compression 186, where does this information come from as all my NASCO and Holden Publications do not show this?
Holden Produced a 161W in the HR and 161L in the HK where both actually a lower compression than the 186 but not a seperate low compression version of the 161 itself, this is as close as my information gets me to any low compression 186L.
Are saying that Holden produced both a 161L and a 186L as this makes no sense, and deviated away from the reuse of the same prefix?



Edited by user Wednesday, 10 July 2013 7:57:23 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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#10 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 7:40:27 AM(UTC)
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Mike

Nasco 6cyl replacements for HG commercials will be 161N, 186N, ND, NE, NL or NM for the 8 different 6cyl engines used, ie 161J, 161L, 186P, 186S, 173HC, 173LC, 202HC and 202LC.

186L engines were option code L23 in HT-HG.

My best guess is the NJ you have is a stuff up, has to be. If it isn't and is some obscure thing then I agree it can only be a 186, bore and mains size plus the side casting will show you that. But it can really only be for something that had a 186 installed as original fitment post HQ engine release just like NK. Only possibility I can think of is maybe a Bedford.

The letters used do not increase by model year, they increase by engine size. So A is 130ci and U is 350, linear in between. The only odd ones are V and Z.

I'm not sure where you are going with the 161L engine, there was both a 161L and a 186L and both were low compression versions of their respective high compresssion selves. The 161 was the same basic bottom end just used a H head for the HC and an L head for the LC. 186L was achieved the same way a 202, 253 and 308 LC engine was, by using dished pistons. So as far as Nasco short motors were concerned, the 161 was the same for both H and L versions and got a 161N number. When the engine was completed it could be either a 161LC or 161HC, the Nasco engine number did not tell you. As far as short motors went, 186 was different, primarily as H and L versions used different pistons, but the trimatic 186 used a different cam, but still a 186N number would be used. These are the different HT 186 short motors, they are actually listed with different part numbers for manual and auto due to manual spigot bush:

186P manual
186P powerglide
186P trimatic (different camshaft)
186L manual
186L powerglide
186L trimatic (differnt camshaft)
186S manual
186S auto

So it makes sense they'd all use the same 186N prefix (which real world examples do) and have a part number and application tag attached. Once complete it'd be in the same boat as the 161, ie 186N didn't tell you the whole story, just the capacity.
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Dr Terry Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 6:51:40 PM(UTC)
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A few comments here guys.

Mike mentioned the S4 engine had 'performance improvements'. To my knowledge these motors just used hand picked components based on machining & production tolerances, in other words a form of blueprinting. No different components were used in these engines, all parts were 'stock'.

Also Mike mentioned the 179F & 186A etc. as being for Special & Premier, or Kingswood & Premier. Weren't these engine fitted to the entire model range, including Standards, Monaros & Belmonts etc. Of course the GTSs & Broughams are excluded, being premium models.

On the subject of 'Short Motors', when I was involved in the engine trade in the early 70s, we had 4 basic 6-cyl engines:

1. Block & pistons.
2. Short motor
3. Sub assembly
4. Long motor

Now GM-H may define theirs differently but a short motor in the trade, had no camshaft, oil pump or sump, it was just a block with pistons, rings, crank & bearings assembled. This way it could be fitted to anything from an EH to an LC or HG by just adding the appropriate sump. head & accessories. A sub-assembly on the other hand was more model specific, it included these items.

To add to your engine prefix list

The missing alpha codes are used on later Holden engines , also Camira etc. & also some of the import (Vauxhall/Opel) engines.
My list goes like this for 7/71 onwards

A 304 auto VK
B 2250 hI or 304 manual VK V5H
C 2250 lo or 4.9 SS Group A VK or 1.8 TBI Camira unleaded
D 2850 hi or 2.0 litre Camira
E 2850 lo
G 4.9 manual VK exc. V5H
H 1.6 litre Camira
I 1600 OHC Torana
J 5.0 carburetted VL
K 3300 EFI VK
L 202/3300 hi
M 202/3300 lo
N 1.9 litre Starfire
O 1159/1200 Torana
P 3300 XU1 Torana or 5000 SS Group A Walkinshaw
Q 1600 litre petrol (Gemini)
R 253/4.2 litre hi
S 253/4.2 litre lo
T 308/5.0 litre HQ-VK
U 350 HQ or 1.8 litre PFI Camira leaded
V 1300 Torana hi
W 1300 Torana lo or 4.9 SS Group A Brock VL
X 1760 Torana or Diesel RWD Gemini
Y 1900 Opel
Z 5.0 L34 Torana or 5.0 VH/VK V5H engine

Dr Terry
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HK1837 Offline
#12 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 7:15:06 PM(UTC)
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Terry, GMH short motor was as you say plus cam, timing gears and timing cover. Service engine was a complete engine to replace a failed one bar clutch, clutch/converter housing and starter motor. I'm not sure if that means it had carby, inlet/exhaust manifolds and dizzy or not? Interesting that in the 70's GMH used those seemingly "taboo" numbers, ie I, O and the series codes seemingly as infill ie gone back and seen what wasn't allocated and whacked an engine in there.
There is a few post 7/71 you are missing in that list, although obviously you stopped at VL:

E is also 200kW VN HSV
K is late LC XU-1 and later VN Group A and VP GTS
M is VT and VSIII 179kW
N is VT HBD 195i (engine with different heads, not all 195i had these)
P is also VT 5.7L 220kW
U is VN-early VSIII and VQ 304.
V is low comp Bedford 308.

There will be V6's in there too from VN onwards.

It is funny how there will be identical prefixes in the Commodore era, like VK, VN, VP etc, obviously never the same number though as the engine number sequence started at VB ran until well after the end of the Holden V8, not sure when or if it ever reached 999999 on V6 engines?
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Dr Terry Offline
#13 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 7:37:41 PM(UTC)
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Yeah, my list was made for late 72 to 88 (not 7/71 as I said) for deciphering those style of VIN plate. Thats why the F & K LC motors & the VN onwards are not there.

With the 999999 V6 Commodore engines, they changed prefixes at VX from VH & VS to VA & VR to avoid the issue.

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#14 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 8:05:49 PM(UTC)
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Cool that is what I thought you might have been doing, you still need to add BV though from 1979-80.
I doubt they would have hit another VA number as the originals of these would have been up around 500000 ie VA500000 in VK, but the possibility of repeating a VR was high, as these would have been lots of VR's (ie 253HC) between Vx1001 and around the Vx400000 mark between the start of VB and the end of VH.

The other 1970's codes I have for a GMH VIN plate are S and T. The 1975-1976 model years (ie pre 9/76) C20, C30, C50 and C60 trucks used these. T is used for the Mexican 292ci 6cyl engine in the very first of the C20 and C30 trucks, S is used for the Flint 292ci 6cyl in C50 and C60 (which appeared late in 1975) and later C20 and C30. Once the 1977 model year came around there was no longer a code in the VIN number for the engine.
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Dr Terry Offline
#15 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 9:05:05 PM(UTC)
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I know about the Bedford BV (308 lo comp) but it's not on my 'Holden' list.

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Mike81973 Offline
#16 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 9:58:57 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
A few comments here guys.

Mike mentioned the S4 engine had 'performance improvements'. To my knowledge these motors just used hand picked components based on machining & production tolerances, in other words a form of blueprinting. No different components were used in these engines, all parts were 'stock'.

Also Mike mentioned the 179F & 186A etc. as being for Special & Premier, or Kingswood & Premier. Weren't these engine fitted to the entire model range, including Standards, Monaros & Belmonts etc. Of course the GTSs & Broughams are excluded, being premium models.

On the subject of 'Short Motors', when I was involved in the engine trade in the early 70s, we had 4 basic 6-cyl engines:

1. Block & pistons.
2. Short motor
3. Sub assembly
4. Long motor

Now GM-H may define theirs differently but a short motor in the trade, had no camshaft, oil pump or sump, it was just a block with pistons, rings, crank & bearings assembled. This way it could be fitted to anything from an EH to an LC or HG by just adding the appropriate sump. head & accessories. A sub-assembly on the other hand was more model specific, it included these items.

To add to your engine prefix list

The missing alpha codes are used on later Holden engines , also Camira etc. & also some of the import (Vauxhall/Opel) engines.
My list goes like this for 7/71 onwards

A 304 auto VK
B 2250 hI or 304 manual VK V5H
C 2250 lo or 4.9 SS Group A VK or 1.8 TBI Camira unleaded
D 2850 hi or 2.0 litre Camira
E 2850 lo
G 4.9 manual VK exc. V5H
H 1.6 litre Camira
I 1600 OHC Torana
J 5.0 carburetted VL
K 3300 EFI VK
L 202/3300 hi
M 202/3300 lo
N 1.9 litre Starfire
O 1159/1200 Torana
P 3300 XU1 Torana or 5000 SS Group A Walkinshaw
Q 1600 litre petrol (Gemini)
R 253/4.2 litre hi
S 253/4.2 litre lo
T 308/5.0 litre HQ-VK
U 350 HQ or 1.8 litre PFI Camira leaded
V 1300 Torana hi
W 1300 Torana lo or 4.9 SS Group A Brock VL
X 1760 Torana or Diesel RWD Gemini
Y 1900 Opel
Z 5.0 L34 Torana or 5.0 VH/VK V5H engine

Dr Terry

Thank you Terry, of course I have generalised in my post ( I thought it was long enough ) without going into fine detail about models that did not really form part of my question.
It was quite obvious that the S4 was externally stock and not having to had the chance to pull one down I did not get specific.
You do not mention the obvious that the the X2 engine was an option in the whole range of course I know this, I have personal experience of this, but rather than get bogged down with every detail, I did try to shorten it!
This generalising also applies to the 186A and 179F of course, ( I was just saving space.)
As far as I know the 186A HR engine was not fitted to any Kingswood, though the same block moulds were carried through and were upgraded in 1969 ( without looking at my notes ), the head from a HR was not suited to use in the HK because of the lack of temperature switch clearance.
I have heard contary to a carry over, that the HK engine was fitted to the HR in advance of the change of model, I don't know if this is true, but I do know that the 186S configured engine was fitted to the last half of the HR X2's but retained the 186K prefix.
HK Kingswood had a 186P engine. Also as far as I know most if not all Belmonts in the HK had the lesser 161L.
Where did you get the information about low compression pistons my HK my book does not show this. My records seem to show every 186 piston was the same.
As far as 6cyls in the premimum models is concerned, I would be surprised if this was not an option as the later HQ Statesman could be optioned with a 6cyl, but I certianally do not want to get into a debate that has nothing to do with my original question,
now you were obviously generalising too in that.

With Short motors I am going by the Holden and NASCO boocks I have avialable to me and I do not have the full range so may be a few gaps in my information, my books indicate that there were only 2 ways to replace an engine in my 1972 print HK book, though I have been told that there was a complete engine available in the early 1968-9 HK book, but where the fourth option comes from I would be interested to know.
Going by the description in the parts books I have your description of a short motor does not match, but matches a block and pistons.
That which you describe as a sub assembly is not mentioned and would appear that a sub assembly must have come later to cover more models, there is no sub assembly in any of my early 70's Holden books.
A short motor is described by Holden as a crankshaft,camshaft, timing gears, pistons, piston rings, con rods & front cover plate.

It seems my suspicions that a change in short motors/ sub assemblys might have occurred later may be getting close to the mark, hence the additional, sub assembly terminology.

Thanks for the later prefixes, these would be good on a seperate topic fo all to see.

Edited by user Wednesday, 10 July 2013 10:29:49 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Dr Terry Offline
#17 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 10:11:59 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike81973
You do not metion the obvious that the the X2 engine was an option in the whole range of course I kow this, I have personal experience of this, but rather than get bogged down with every detail, I did try to shorten it!
This generalising also applies to the 186A and 179F of course, I was just saving space.
As far as I know the 186A HR engine was not fitted to any Kingswood, though the same block moulds were carried through and were upgraded in 1969 without looking at my notes, the head from a HR was not suited to use in the HK because of the lack of temperature switch clearance. HK Kingswood had a 186P engine. Also as far as I know most if not all Belmonts in the HK had the lesser 161L.
As far as 6cyls in the premimum models is concerned, I would be surprised if this was not an option as the later HQ Statesman could be optioned with a 6cyl, but I certianally do not want to get into a debate that has nothing to do with my original question,
now you were obviously generalising too in that.

I didn't mention the X2 or 186S engines but yes they were available across the range, excluding Brougham & the top end GTSs.

To my knowledge you could not option an engine lesser than what was standard. i.e. If a 186 was standard in a Premier you couldn't option a 161 instead. You couldn't option a std 186 in a GTS or any 6-cyl in a Brougham. The 6-cyl HQ Statesman you mention was the std (non-DeVille) Statesman which had the 202 as std just like a Premier, V8s were an option & the 173 not an option. Again in a DeVille, which had a 308 std, couldn't be optioned with a 253 V8 or any 6-cyl.

I didn't say that a 186A was fitted to any Kingswood, they had 186P, or 186L or 186S. Belmonts & Kingswoods both came with a 161 in standard form, but a 186P was a common option for both, probably moreso for the Kingswood, but I have no idea of the proportions. The 161L was a very, very rare fitment, I have only ever seen 2 such vehicles, the 161H was the common std 161 for Belmonts, Kingswoods & Monaros .

Also the change in the head casting to clear the temp sensor was during mid-HR, where the HK style 7437395 casting was introduced, it was not related to the 186A to 186P engine number change. This was in similar fashion to the mid-HG change to the HQ style 2811930 head casting.

Dr Terry
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HK1837 Offline
#18 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2013 10:20:36 PM(UTC)
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Mike, 186P was optional on all HK-HG except GTS and Brougham. GTS got 186S as standard and Brougham was 307 in HK and 308 in HT-G. 202HC (11QL) was the standard engine for HQ Statesman, I think it was the only engine for the 6cyl model Statesman (possibly a low comp 11QM as well). It was a regular production vehicle for the first half or so of Statesman, but built only to order later in HQ. The standard engine in the V8 Statesman was a 253 (11QR), I recall Dr Terry stating he had seen an 11QS in one too. 308 and 350 could be optioned in the V8 Statesman model as well.

You want the yellow HK parts catalogue issued later in 1968 that lists all the different part numbers for service engines and short motors.
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