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Monaro magic book platinum edition.
page 51 has a ordering spec for the HT.
Looking into this it has 307 V8 in the brougham and 130 6 cyl in others. it is dated march 1969 so i think it is not for australian market.
I have heard that some think the first HT Brougham got the 307, this maybe what they are looking at thinking it's correct.
Maybe an export HT Brougham got a 307 or it's just too early dated that they were not sure to be sure. but the 130 and low comp 161 suggest it could be export to me.
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130ci 6cyl was certainly in export HT-HG. Quite possible the 307 was used in overseas assembled cars. |
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One of our lot on this form once said their was 307 in the First HT brougham and i think this is where he may of got that info from.
It's not true at all but maybe so with an export. trying to flog off them gutless rubbish 307, ha ha.
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307 was used for plenty of HK to use them up. The export possibilty may have been simply to use bits directly sourced like the 250ci 6cyl. They aren't really gutless though, they were hamstrung by the carby and exhaust. If you put the 327's inlest, carb and exhaust on them for a fair comparison (as the 308 had all that available) and the 307 will kick the HT spec 308's butt. Even with just the exhaust they will outdo a 308. |
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That's not my experience a mate had a P van as did i and we both had the same diff ratio he had a 307 std with 4bbl and 327 intake we both had extractors and twin exhaust he had the saginaw box and i had the m21 and i always hosed him off.
The HQ 350 were gutless as well i had a HQ GTS 308 with the good old trimatic auto stock as and another dude had a HQ GTS 350 auto T400 both had 3.08 diff ratios and he had nothing in it until after 180 KM/H the 350 started to walk away.
Another mate had a HQ 350 GTS 4sp stock as a rock and he would not bring it out because he knew i would have him in my old 308 P van.
The Chevs are overrated just like the fords 302 clevelands were gutless
as were the 351 GT XB and XC etc the 4V 351 GT could get up and go ok.
And i am talking stock engines hear only.
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It is a fact that a HK 307 manual with 327's exhaust is all but as quick as a HK GTS327. Both have 3.36:1 diff. So your van must have been quicker than a GTS327 which i'm not surprised as I think they were only good for 16sec quarters. I had a stock HT 307 in an FJ40 and it was pretty quick over the quarter for what it was. It used to hose off turbo Lasers and 4.2L Toranas. |
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Hi there castellan, don't be fooled that all XB GT Falcons were gutless as the early XB GT's late 73 early 74 had the early 4V engine with Top loader instead of the later Aussie 2V engines and Single Rail 4 speed box.
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307 in standard form were a poor performer. Back when they were relatively modern my girlfriends HR 186s manual used to flog my HK 307 auto every time, no matter who was driving. Was very frustrating at time. Fixed that problem by buying the HR186s. |
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quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
It is a fact that a HK 307 manual with 327's exhaust is all but as quick as a HK GTS327. Both have 3.36:1 diff. So your van must have been quicker than a GTS327 which i'm not surprised as I think they were only good for 16sec quarters. I had a stock HT 307 in an FJ40 and it was pretty quick over the quarter for what it was. It used to hose off turbo Lasers and 4.2L Toranas.
2BBL 307 as fast as a 327 with a 4bbl and better heads ? If we look at the old mags in the day for 1/4 times etc i think a lot of them were hopeless drivers and they never had the car long enought to get the best out of them and the state of tune was crap at times that it was just a poor joke. i always has a lack of respect for aussie mag testing a very poor show indeed. Nothing wrong with the old 307 but just saying from my experience.
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quote:
Originally posted by tripple webers
Hi there castellan, don't be fooled that all XB GT Falcons were gutless as the early XB GT's late 73 early 74 had the early 4V engine with Top loader instead of the later Aussie 2V engines and Single Rail 4 speed box.
Ha ha yes some 1973 were. The XB 351 GT with the aussie engine perfomed better than the XC 351 even if the HP figures say the XC had more but the XB had more grunt mid range but both would run out of power up top end due to the cam having to be bigger. i would say if you put the std XY-A GT cam in a XB GT with 302 heads you would most likely be just as fast if not more power down low.
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quote:
Originally posted by tripple webers
Hi there castellan, don't be fooled that all XB GT Falcons were gutless as the early XB GT's late 73 early 74 had the early 4V engine with Top loader instead of the later Aussie 2V engines and Single Rail 4 speed box.
Ha ha yes some 1973 were. The XB 351 GT with the aussie engine perfomed better than the XC 351 even if the HP figures say the XC had more but the XB had more grunt mid range but both would run out of power up top end due to the cam having to be bigger. i would say if you put the std XY-A GT cam in a XB GT with 302 heads you would most likely be just as fast if not more power down low.
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quote:
Originally posted by HGV8
307 in standard form were a poor performer. Back when they were relatively modern my girlfriends HR 186s manual used to flog my HK 307 auto every time, no matter who was driving. Was very frustrating at time. Fixed that problem by buying the HR186s.
HK 307 auto with a 2.78 diff ratio ? a mate of my brother had a HK brougham it sure was gutless back in 1978 3.36 diff and the 307 auto maybe close to a HK 186s 4sp i would think but a HR is lighter so i would believe you are right.
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HR 186S manual was a very quick car for its time, I think part of the reason was the 3.55:1 diff. They were about line ball with an XR GT over the quarter if you could keep the Opel box in one piece! |
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quote:
Originally posted by castellan
quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
It is a fact that a HK 307 manual with 327's exhaust is all but as quick as a HK GTS327. Both have 3.36:1 diff. So your van must have been quicker than a GTS327 which i'm not surprised as I think they were only good for 16sec quarters. I had a stock HT 307 in an FJ40 and it was pretty quick over the quarter for what it was. It used to hose off turbo Lasers and 4.2L Toranas.
2BBL 307 as fast as a 327 with a 4bbl and better heads ?
If we look at the old mags in the day for 1/4 times etc i think a lot of them were hopeless drivers and they never had the car long enought to get the best out of them and the state of tune was crap at times that it was just a poor joke. i always has a lack of respect for aussie mag testing a very poor show indeed.
Nothing wrong with the old 307 but just saying from my experience.
I can't remember the name of the brothers that had them in the late 60's as rally cars, but that is all they did to them ie 327's exhaust. There are tests around on those cars that showed the figures. If you look at the big difference in hp between a HJ 308 with single and dual exhaust you'll see a similar improvement in a 307, I think standard they are rated 210hp and the dual exhaust 327 is 250hp, so add 20hp or so to the 307 with a dual exhaust and a tune to match the exhausts improvement and the cars are pretty close. GTS327 heads aren't really anything different to the 307 heads. |
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"I think standard they are rated 210hp and the dual exhaust 327 is 250hp, so add 20hp or so to the 307 with a dual exhaust and a tune to match the exhausts improvement and the cars are pretty close"
Remember those HP figures are SAE gross & measured with no exhaust system, and no alternator, water pump & air cleaner.
SAE gross HP will be the same for a single or dual exhaust.
SAE net(installed HP) will be better for the dual.
And thanks to all for an interesting thread! |
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quote:
Originally posted by Premier 350
"I think standard they are rated 210hp and the dual exhaust 327 is 250hp, so add 20hp or so to the 307 with a dual exhaust and a tune to match the exhausts improvement and the cars are pretty close"
Remember those HP figures are SAE gross & measured with no exhaust system, and no alternator, water pump & air cleaner.
SAE gross HP will be the same for a single or dual exhaust.
SAE net(installed HP) will be better for the dual.
And thanks to all for an interesting thread!
Yes SAE figures, when one looks at how that works is that if you add compression up goes the power rating, not real world. Look at a 302 2bbl carby cleveland it is like 169 hp net in a XB and 202 HP in the 4bbl 302 XC falcon. 183 HP in a 351 2bbl XB and 217 HP net in a 4bbl 351 XB. It's like the old argument on 186 vs 202 and the fact is some 186 were faster than some 202 but hey ! some not all.
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quote:
Originally posted by Premier 350
"I think standard they are rated 210hp and the dual exhaust 327 is 250hp, so add 20hp or so to the 307 with a dual exhaust and a tune to match the exhausts improvement and the cars are pretty close"
Remember those HP figures are SAE gross & measured with no exhaust system, and no alternator, water pump & air cleaner.
SAE gross HP will be the same for a single or dual exhaust.
SAE net(installed HP) will be better for the dual.
And thanks to all for an interesting thread!
True, but imagine how choked the 307 was with essentially the 186 exhaust behind it? You can see (if you can find the road tests) the big difference between a post HJ SLR5000 and an early LX SLR5000 or SS 5.0L. The LX got a proper 2" twin system and that made a significant difference, those care were weapons especially compared to the early LH with the lower comp HQ engine. So swap the twin for a single and imagine how choked a HJ Prem, Kingswood, Sandman etc 5.0L must have been? Imagine the dissapointment if you test drove an early 1976 LX 5.0L, ordered one and by the time it was built you got a dog ADR27A car! |
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quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
Imagine the dissapointment if you test drove an early 1976 LX 5.0L, ordered one and by the time it was built you got a dog ADR27A car!
I know of this happening to a friend of mine with a Papaya 5.0 SS, not happy Jan !! A similar thing happened in the 80s, with unleaded cars. I know of a situation with Mitsubishi Cordia Turbos. The Police dept, evaluated them for pursuit car use & those early (leaded) version were pretty quick cars. By the time the order went thru, they received the unleaded versions, which were slugs by comparison. All in all a waste of money & time. Dr Terry |
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I remember one of the guys from Pit Crew in Newcastle telling me he ordered a 5litre HT GTS new expecting a 307, but what he got was a 308 and wasn't happy. Back then all they had to do was fit 461 fuellies, 4BBL valley, Holley and exhaust and the cars went like stink. When the 308 was new there was nothing you could really do to it as they were pretty much optimised with 4BBL, twin exhaust etc. Not easy to raise compression or fit big port heads like you could do with the 307. |
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HT 307 GTS would of only came with the single exhaust, with the 308 he could opt the twin exhaust.
The HQ 350 statesman came out with the single exhaust, boy was that gutless.
One problem was the old 307 was a low compression.
An other problem back in the 70's with the 308 was the pistons were weak and the 327 piston sat to low down the bore, loosing power again.
Just look at how holden loved them small exhaust back then and remember the blue 3.3L they put a better size pipe on from then.
I remember telling my dad to put twin on his LTD, no no no he said it's to loud. bulls*** i said, just because it's twin does not have to make it loud at all.
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