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308Spark Advance
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81837 Offline
#1 Posted : Tuesday, 25 February 2014 5:30:51 AM(UTC)
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My manual suggests the 'intial advance' should be 2 degrees BTDC, HT 308 powerglide. Are they saying thats what I should see with a timing light, at idle, vac advance disconnected?

Thanks
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Dr Terry Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, 25 February 2014 6:14:43 AM(UTC)
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I've always set 308s at 6 degrees initial, with the vacuum hose disconnected, but these days it very much depends on the octane rating of the fuel you're running.

Probably best to set it by ear.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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speed.factory Offline
#3 Posted : Sunday, 9 March 2014 1:57:51 PM(UTC)
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HT 308 - got the curves written somewhere ; but 2' initial they're a dog , if 95-98 octane set initial to 8-10 advance with vac hose pluged at 500-550 rpm , 8-12 ' mechanical all in by 2300-3000rpm (especially with upto 213' @ 0.050" cam & if mild/std cam can tolerate a decent amount of vac advance for hyway economy about 8-16 degrees from memory,
If using Stk Points Dist, & you've got a mild cam,quickest spark curve fix is to use the light dist weight spring out of a boshe 202 HQ 6cyl Dist & remove the light & heavy out of your points (or twin point) Std Holden dist & just fit the single HQ 202 light tension advance weight spring, lucky-dip now as to whats avail out there now at GMH for Replacement Vac advance, bust best to use your Origininal HT one (unless you've been hard sold into billet replacent) Theres a Firm in Christchurh NZ that rebuilds shot diaphram advance canisters & they do it of Q-jet Carb Vacuum breaks (that operate the choke & decide how fast the Q-jet vac secondary plate slams open by,on full throtle) again the HT Monaro had the Best & Fastest Choke vacuum brake,if you are wanting a fast response motor as GMH built it.Goodluck
PS I'll look up those Mech & Vacuum advance curves for HT 253 & 308 for others when they spring to hand.

I also bet you (or others) didn't know, if its out of a Monaro, A GMH Marine 308 OR HQ Statesman,they were all fitted with Hotter cams (thats why your dads HQ Statesman always sounded a bit chesty with cam sound through its single exh - Hamilton Jet 308's used the Monaro Engine with its HT/HG SLR500 cam in it too (for Export) could be std fare cams in AU,yep I go back hands on when they were new out, not read inaccurate hearsay of other forums CB chatter etc)

Hit me up for that address for Vacuum brakes & vacuum advance unit rebuilds if anyone wants to got that route.
Cheers SP
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HK1837 Offline
#4 Posted : Sunday, 9 March 2014 5:41:08 PM(UTC)
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I can feel another myth being busted....
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
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speed.factory Offline
#5 Posted : Sunday, 9 March 2014 5:58:24 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
I can feel another myth being busted....



? ... In what way & in referance to what ? (as anything I write is from practical experience,well learned from the right peopl & being around learning in the thick of it,I've forgotten half of what I know)


lets hope this doesn't break-down as other forums I've seen & observed but not frequented do with wine snobs etc.
Cheers
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HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Sunday, 9 March 2014 6:29:13 PM(UTC)
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The myth that Monaro or Statesman 308 had a different camshaft to other 308's. Or 308 Torana camshafts outside of L34 or A9X were any different to Holden 308 engines. GMH didn't even know what engines were going into Statesmans until they were in the car.
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speed.factory Offline
#7 Posted : Sunday, 9 March 2014 7:23:13 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
The myth that Monaro or Statesman 308 had a different camshaft to other 308's. Or 308 Torana camshafts outside of L34 or A9X were any different to Holden 308 engines. GMH didn't even know what engines were going into Statesmans until they were in the car.



My Friend - unless you've been around a couple of NZ Camgrinders, GGMH NZ Parts Depts , Certain Workshops & Engineers etc & the VIRGIN Engines We've stipped-down & had the Camshafts measured Directly & you were 'Hehind the scenes at the time particularly during the Benson & hedges Race serices through the 1970's in NZ ... & I could quote referances for the rest of the morning, more things went on than I think your privy too...

& Again, I'm Speaking From Mine & Others in NZ Practical experience , OK Go tell Phill at Kelford Cams in Christchurch that he's been "cam dr'ing" phantom sticks during his working career, Go tell Hamilton Jets In Chch NZ That The Monaro HT 308's they bought had Std HQ type cams in them
Same for the 2 virgin used cams out of an HT 308 & HQ Statesman I've pulled out & measured myself & had verified years late,that they are common other stk "AU" domestic market grinds...
Better Tell Mr West Of West/Bond Monaro days the cams he sent me over are just NOS plane janes...

My Friend what-ever myth you've got involved with was common fact over here amongst the knowlegable well before any cb type web forum was even dreamed of & if you're an expert with a decent tuning ear, you could just tell by different exhaust notes & idles things were different...

But then South Africa & NZ Got the 1st 308's before AU did while they let 307 stocks dry-up on the domestic market was another myth too , sorry if growing up around Car dealerships Dads Firm was contracted to,engineers , The Public Service Garage that was Contracted to Tune & Hot-up the Ministry of transport hiway patrol cars, that Had HQ 253's with Solid lifter Cams & Adjustable rocker gear,way before it was was released on the Aussie Market Via John of Performance Products, now of GC ,partially supplied by GMH (+ other things) & being in the thick of it at the time has given knowledge & facts most are not even/were able to get near.

Sorry to rock the boat baliwicks of the furnature here, but I'm not going to argue what I've & others have seen & measured with our own eyes...

I'll leave the X-spurts to the continued myth busting...
Oh & PS , The HT 308 Virgin I pulled down didn't have Z28 springs in it either that wiped 4-5 lobes off at 20,000 miles with spring pressures too high for the early soft poor nickle content holden cam , was a myth before my/our eyes too ? , yep onya

Yep like the HG 186 Premier Auto 1bbl carb " Improved Performance " engine that was fitted with the 186S cam was a myth too ?
Never say never,as someome may come along & make you think : 'Sheet,this guy knows more than i do' -

now who was it who under-arm bowled ? , I'm not going to voice my credentials on things I have better time spent on.
Cheers anyway
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speed.factory Offline
#8 Posted : Sunday, 9 March 2014 7:34:04 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
The myth that Monaro or Statesman 308 had a different camshaft to other 308's. Or 308 Torana camshafts outside of L34 or A9X were any different to Holden 308 engines. GMH didn't even know what engines were going into Statesmans until they were in the car.


PPS & You've got that Wrong too - GMH DID know what engines were ear-marked for certain cars too... maybe even if you worked in an assembly plant at the time,you weren't aware of wheels with-in wheels

& I'll add another curved-ball - were you around to order & secure one of the Bathurst HX cammed XU1's into NZ, where you had to not what you know,but who you know , I can't be bothered explaining a world we you had to have been there & I'll let history slip away to those who know what they knew was what it was back then

Thanks for your interest, but I'm not getting paid & I'm not giving other confidential book material,too many data miners around.

Have a Midi & Schooner on me.
Cheers
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HGV8 Offline
#9 Posted : Sunday, 9 March 2014 10:41:11 PM(UTC)
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Mr Speed Factory
I don't know if it is your intention, but I feel a little insulted by the way you have expressed yourself. I have found Fastlane to be the most informative and accurate source of information regarding older Holdens that I have come across. No one person knows everything about everything. The guys on here pool their knowledge together to help each other out in a respectful way. No bluster or "I know more then you" carry on. So please take the time to take in what are others opinion are on a particular subject, but if you don't agree, reply respectfully. There is other's on here with many decades of experience, not only you. You may even learn something from these guys, and we may learn something from you.

Edited by user Sunday, 9 March 2014 10:45:53 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

j.williams
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Dr Terry Offline
#10 Posted : Sunday, 9 March 2014 11:07:52 PM(UTC)
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I've no doubt that Mr speed.cafe has had good 'hands-on' experience in the days of carby tuning & distributor recurving etc. as I have, but he has raised a few subjects that both HK1837 & I have reason to question.

He has throw in many bits of info at random, in a rather heated fashion, instead of discussing each on it's own merits.

It is possible that the export versions you see in NZ are different to what we see here in Aust. This is definitely the case for ADR27A (7/76) onwards cars.

It is well documented that various XU-1s left the factory door in different engine specs, with & without the XH (not HX as you've typed) camshaft. I didn't think that this was in question.

It is also well documented that many std HT/HG 186 (1 barrel) got the 186S camshaft. I didn't think that this was in question either.

It is well documented that Sth African Monaros got the 308 (badged 5-litre) before our Monaros got it, but our 308 Brougham pre-dated all of them. I've never seen anything other than the std 0.400 lift cam in those engines. So, again maybe NZ got some specials. Do you have any genuine literature on this.

The matter I have the biggest reason question is, that HT Monaros (GTS or otherwise, this wasn't specified) had a different engine spec (or carby spec) than any other HT or HG. So what he suggesting is that 2 identically optioned HTs (say 308 Saginaw), maybe one Premier & one Monaro GTS, had different engines or carbies. Do you have anything in print, genuine or otherwise to support that.

If the NZ Highway patrol received GM-H built 253 V8s with solid lifters & adjustable rockers, again that would be a very special build not seen in Australia. The idea of GM-H spending the necessary $$$ to engineer such a thing, for such a small order, seems odd to me. The only solid lifter V8 that GM-H built in Australia was the Hurricane motor.

Looking forward to further sensible conversation.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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HK1837 Offline
#11 Posted : Monday, 10 March 2014 5:38:01 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by speed.factory
quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
The myth that Monaro or Statesman 308 had a different camshaft to other 308's. Or 308 Torana camshafts outside of L34 or A9X were any different to Holden 308 engines. GMH didn't even know what engines were going into Statesmans until they were in the car.



My Friend - unless you've been around a couple of NZ Camgrinders, GGMH NZ Parts Depts , Certain Workshops & Engineers etc & the VIRGIN Engines We've stipped-down & had the Camshafts measured Directly & you were 'Hehind the scenes at the time particularly during the Benson & hedges Race serices through the 1970's in NZ ... & I could quote referances for the rest of the morning, more things went on than I think your privy too...

& Again, I'm Speaking From Mine & Others in NZ Practical experience , OK Go tell Phill at Kelford Cams in Christchurch that he's been "cam dr'ing" phantom sticks during his working career, Go tell Hamilton Jets In Chch NZ That The Monaro HT 308's they bought had Std HQ type cams in them
Same for the 2 virgin used cams out of an HT 308 & HQ Statesman I've pulled out & measured myself & had verified years late,that they are common other stk "AU" domestic market grinds...
Better Tell Mr West Of West/Bond Monaro days the cams he sent me over are just NOS plane janes...

My Friend what-ever myth you've got involved with was common fact over here amongst the knowlegable well before any cb type web forum was even dreamed of & if you're an expert with a decent tuning ear, you could just tell by different exhaust notes & idles things were different...

But then South Africa & NZ Got the 1st 308's before AU did while they let 307 stocks dry-up on the domestic market was another myth too , sorry if growing up around Car dealerships Dads Firm was contracted to,engineers , The Public Service Garage that was Contracted to Tune & Hot-up the Ministry of transport hiway patrol cars, that Had HQ 253's with Solid lifter Cams & Adjustable rocker gear,way before it was was released on the Aussie Market Via John of Performance Products, now of GC ,partially supplied by GMH (+ other things) & being in the thick of it at the time has given knowledge & facts most are not even/were able to get near.

Sorry to rock the boat baliwicks of the furnature here, but I'm not going to argue what I've & others have seen & measured with our own eyes...

I'll leave the X-spurts to the continued myth busting...
Oh & PS , The HT 308 Virgin I pulled down didn't have Z28 springs in it either that wiped 4-5 lobes off at 20,000 miles with spring pressures too high for the early soft poor nickle content holden cam , was a myth before my/our eyes too ? , yep onya

Yep like the HG 186 Premier Auto 1bbl carb " Improved Performance " engine that was fitted with the 186S cam was a myth too ?
Never say never,as someome may come along & make you think : 'Sheet,this guy knows more than i do' -

now who was it who under-arm bowled ? , I'm not going to voice my credentials on things I have better time spent on.
Cheers anyway


I won't be as polite as Dr Terry so I won't say anything.
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If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
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castellan Offline
#12 Posted : Tuesday, 11 March 2014 3:09:33 AM(UTC)
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I have only 2 cams for 308 reds.
PN 7434871 = HT-G-Q it has no rings cast
PN 2825882 = HJ-X-Z it has one ring cast on the cam and is a bigger duration.
A 308 LH Torana with the HT-G-Q cam but with 253 timing gear on it so this is 5 degree more advanced like the ADR27A are and with the LH From when the HJ came out would of got the bigger cam as the HJ i would think.

But it's good to hear from someone who may know more then i as i am always willing to listen.
Statesman with bigger cam with the 11TQ prefix ? and monaros bigger cam, they don't have any thing to ID them with and if they did it should have diffrent tuning settings i would think. with twin exhaust i would think maybe a bit richer jeting could be the case, but not that i know of and our HQ statesman only had that rubbish single exhaust std and they are gutless as that way.
HJ on 253 have a smaller cam PN 92000944
Good to hear from you Speed Factory.
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HK1837 Offline
#13 Posted : Tuesday, 11 March 2014 4:26:33 AM(UTC)
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The engines were all built at the engine plant in Victoria, and were shipped to the assembly plants as per the rolling schedule. The engine plant would have no idea what engine was going in where although they knew enough to have a separate prefix and number series for Torana, but this distinction was necessary anyway due to the different exhaust manifold and different rocker covers. The extra prefix added to Statesman engines (11) and LX ADR27A auto 6cyl engines (X) was done once the engines were in the cars, further evidence they were identical. And in the end WHY would GMH want a more opowerful 308 in a HQ Statesman when:

A. The engine had a trimatic behind it that was already deemed to be too weak to handle the improved HJ 308 engine in Holden and Statesman.
B. There was a bigger 350ci engine available on both Statesman and Deville.
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castellan Offline
#14 Posted : Friday, 21 March 2014 12:37:49 AM(UTC)
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I am waiting for old speed factory to get back to us as i want to hear more about this cam etc.
Does the HT 350 have the same cam as the later HG 350 and the HQ 350 cam, or are they all the same. timing deg the same ? are the last 1973 retarded.
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speed.factory Offline
#15 Posted : Wednesday, 26 March 2014 12:02:51 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by castellan
I have only 2 cams for 308 reds.
PN 7434871 = HT-G-Q it has no rings cast
PN 2825882 = HJ-X-Z it has one ring cast on the cam and is a bigger duration.
A 308 LH Torana with the HT-G-Q cam but with 253 timing gear on it so this is 5 degree more advanced like the ADR27A are and with the LH From when the HJ came out would of got the bigger cam as the HJ i would think.

But it's good to hear from someone who may know more then i as i am always willing to listen.
Statesman with bigger cam with the 11TQ prefix ? and monaros bigger cam, they don't have any thing to ID them with and if they did it should have diffrent tuning settings i would think. with twin exhaust i would think maybe a bit richer jeting could be the case, but not that i know of and our HQ statesman only had that rubbish single exhaust std and they are gutless as that way.
HJ on 253 have a smaller cam PN 92000944
Good to hear from you Speed Factory.
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castellan Offline
#16 Posted : Friday, 28 March 2014 1:44:20 AM(UTC)
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Speed factory may know about fords i have questions about the ford cams.
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#17 Posted : Tuesday, 1 April 2014 6:07:09 AM(UTC)
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Looked like this thread was going to turn into a great debate but I think poor old speed wobbles has spun out lol
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castellan Offline
#18 Posted : Tuesday, 1 April 2014 9:59:40 PM(UTC)
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I had hoppes on him knowing maybe somthing that could maybe true, and that's all fine to say what he was saying but you have to be man enough to cop what you may get back. just running away from it all does not cut it as it only points out that one is full of it.
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speed.factory Offline
#19 Posted : Wednesday, 2 April 2014 5:36:39 PM(UTC)
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Hmmmm maybe a few should jack their ideas up & not confirm my learned suspicions & observations of 'Most' web forums ...

Had far more important things on the adgena than wearing a tall poppy syndrom from cheap-seats expecting entertainment

My Elderly Dad had an "ambo" call from me for violent Abd Pains & emergency surgery with-in couple of hours of ER admission

& to put some out of their miseries - yes I do know about some Frod Cams.

This reminds me of these audiophile forums harping on & flaming others over their Tube Amps etc...

& to answer a doubting thomas further up - documentation ? well I've got the Ex Wgtn dealers Parts manuals with written in new part # 's etc (ex the Parts Dept Manager who'd been there pre FX holden days )
& more for the doubters: IF you Ordered an HQ 308 cam c/- its book part number - you CERTAINLY didn't get an HT 308 spec cam thats for sure .

IF you still doubt me & want to call me on it (& btw I don't play bad poker) Give Phil At Kelford Cams In Christchurch NZ & Ask him , ya know a small grinder since 1968,the ones who advertise on precision internationals web site.

Bet you wouldn't believe me if I also mentioned 1 said HT Monaro had a Big Primary throat GS Buick style Quadrajet on it (ex Factory) not the 1" & 3/8" primary bore carb ...

Go ask who-ever put the XU2 Toranas together where the "literature" is now - sorry wrong analogy

If you didn't think things & running changes snuck through GMH - then you 1/ don't know as much as you think you know 2/ sorry you weren't mixing in the right circles of the/at the time...

I wonder how an HK Station wagon came through with a 307 & 4 speed with console & reclining buckets - factory assembled - I guess that didn't happen...

Oh my sorry , but snering attitudes to facts is typical of what I ran into once an Aust resident
BTW Split Enz & the Pav are Kiwi OK ?
:-P
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speed.factory Offline
#20 Posted : Wednesday, 2 April 2014 5:40:13 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by castellan
I had hoppes on him knowing maybe somthing that could maybe true, and that's all fine to say what he was saying but you have to be man enough to cop what you may get back. just running away from it all does not cut it as it only points out that one is full of it.



Oh & Mate - don't call me a liar OK ? thanks

& whats all this " man enough to cop what you may get back " ?? 2 words - Grow up !
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