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hammered Offline
#1 Posted : Tuesday, 16 December 2014 10:13:12 PM(UTC)
hammered

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My HT has a handling issue.It has stiffer front coils with bigger roll bar.Also stiffer rear leaf springs and added roll bar with koni adjustable shocks all round.If you put it into power oversteer it's a challenge to bring it back smoothly.Coming out of the corner the outside rear wheel grips and wants to throw the back end the other way.I don't believe I'm over correcting.
Can this be easily solved.Help is appreciate.

Edited by user Tuesday, 16 December 2014 10:14:28 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

gm5735 Offline
#2 Posted : Tuesday, 16 December 2014 10:33:19 PM(UTC)
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What differential type do you have, (LSD, locker, open etc.) and how much power do you have?
wbute Offline
#3 Posted : Wednesday, 17 December 2014 9:36:44 PM(UTC)
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There are lots of possibilities. Most likely the damping on the adjustable shocks is set wrong. However you have changed so much it will take a bit to diagnose.
Do the adjustable shocks have rebound and compression damping?
hammered Offline
#4 Posted : Wednesday, 17 December 2014 11:40:25 PM(UTC)
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Sorry Guys.Forgot to mention it has a limited slip Banjo diff with moderately improved torque(6 cyl.slightly bigger head,20/60 cam, 2 barrel holley,single exhaust extractors) .Yes it does have rebound and compression damping.
castellan Offline
#5 Posted : Wednesday, 17 December 2014 11:52:20 PM(UTC)
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It could be many things,
Rear housing bent ?
The rear springs to stiff or to high or to low to the front.
Wheel alignment set up or something bent there.

Are you on about on a road or dirt road.

I bought a new VS commodore ute and it was like the worse handling car I had driven, total pig understeer and then total moronic oversteer, the problem was just the factory wheel alignment the fools had positive camber so I put in neg camber and problem solved.
Had a mate with a HZ holden and he complained it did not handle like a HZ should, I said the fools today when wheel aligning, do not use the factory settings but use a moron setup for fools who can't drive so that it understeers like a pig and the rear does not come out.

If the rear is to stiff it will hop about and if the shocks are set up to stiff the same thing and sway bar on the rear can make it more so. you need flex ability and more so on dirt roads.

I had ute springs in the rear and K mac bar on the front of my 253 HG Premier back in 1983 and she could dance around a bit hitting big pot holes on dirt roads going fast but on the road she was fine.

The setup of the front wheel aligning can make a real big difference that most people have no understanding even most so called wheel aligners are amateurs because they don't race cars and lack the experience of true understanding in depth.

Look at a New Falcon ute's rear end and see the XR6 setup is softer than the other ute's and no roll bar and they hang on ok in the rear and if you go to low in the rear it can make it only worse, if the rear is lower than the front you end up with it getting less controllable as the rear should be higher if anything not lower.
If it's lower in the rear than the front that can make the rear not want to snap back into line as it should as this will only add to less control in the rear or dopy.
gm5735 Offline
#6 Posted : Friday, 19 December 2014 1:16:17 AM(UTC)
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As WBute and Castellan said, there a lots of things that could be an issue here.
What you describe is what LSDs tend to do - reduce inside unladen wheels spinning, and drive the outer harder than an open diff. At least you don't have a Detroit locker, or worse a spool. I wonder if you've done much driving of an LSD car in this kind of situation? They definitely behave differently to an open diff.

I suggest you check the basics first, before getting too much into more complex things.
That said, first I'd check the condition of the LSD and measure the breakaway torque. Its fairly simple really. Find some way of turning the rear wheel with a torque wrench (not via a wheel nut!) perhaps with a piece of flat steel wedged between the wheel nuts with a single large nut welded to the centre.
Chock the wheels, take the handbrake off, take the car out of gear, jack up one of the rears and see how much torque it takes to rotate the rear wheel. If you have a fairly standard banjo LSD you would expect 50 ft-lbs or more. Check it on both rears, and they should be about the same. If not - get the diff fixed!
Next, check the rear spring to diff insulator pads. They do wear out and give you all sorts of odd rear end steer behaviour, particularly under power, as the diff can move forward and back by sliding along the leaf spring under power and braking. You can normally see if it has been moving by shiny surfaces on the rear springs. Also check if you have the right number and thickness of steel spacer plates between the diff spring mount and the spring clamp plate. Also check that you have the appropriate thickness rubber insulator pad. There are two different thicknesses available for HT, depending on the model.
As you have different rear springs to standard, and I don't know what flavour of HT you have I cannot help you with specifics here.
Next, check the front and rear wheel alignment at a front end specialist. If the front springs have been replaced with springs with a different ride height the camber and maybe castor will have changed.
The standard figures for HT, from memory, are 0-1 degree positive castor, 0-1 degree positive for camber and zero to 1/8" toe in at straight ahead.
I personally prefer about half a degree negative camber but this can be an issue if you have large tyres on the front.

You will note I said get the rear alignment checked as well, and some may think this is madness. The reason is to check if you have a bent banjo, which is not unheard of, and not always easy to find. It should be zero for everything if the diff is straight. Tell the alignment man why you want it checked, and if he is worth dealing with he will understand.

The setup you describe is difficult to comment on further without knowing the spring rates, but a rear bar on anything will be more likely to make it lift an inside rear wheel, and make it more tail happy, depending on the spring rates. I suspect that you want the rear dampers on full soft, and the same on both sides, (for bump and rebound if they are dual adjustable type) as a starting point

Sorting suspension is what most competition teams spend the most time on, and it isn't easy as there are many interacting adjustments. Usually it ends up as a compromise and in your case it depends on what you want to do with the car.

Hopefully that is of some assistance, and goes some way towards meeting your definition of "easily solved"
wbute Offline
#7 Posted : Sunday, 21 December 2014 7:17:57 AM(UTC)
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Why did you change the suspension in the way you did? What were the handling issues?
Did you replace the center bolts on the springs or has one broken?
All the suspension has been stiffened up so you have less body roll. Something has to flex under load. Is the diff twisting the springs etc etc.
The rule of thumb with suspension is change one thing at a time.
hammered Offline
#8 Posted : Sunday, 28 December 2014 12:05:17 AM(UTC)
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Some time ago I did a major upgrade from the original suspension setup.
I recall the car handled reasonably well.Then one day I replaced the shockers to Konis.Unfortunately I didn't keep a log of what I did.Also I didn't test the car to it's limits to see if the shocks needed adjustment(other things became a priority).I think I'll start with shock adjustment.You guys however have given me some great tips which I'll keep a record of.Thanks a lot.
KKK Offline
#9 Posted : Saturday, 10 January 2015 1:49:06 AM(UTC)
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Koni (toperformance.com.au) specify the same rear shockers for everything from FJ - HG. The correct shockers for factory standard rate rear springs on HK's are vastly different to those fitted to HT and HG, particularly on sedans with only 3 leaves. I don't know what sort of rear springs you have when you say "stiffer".

It's been my experience that the specified Konis and 3 leaf spring packs don't go together well at all. To suit HT and HG they need a *whole* lot more compression dampening.
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