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htprem Offline
#1 Posted : Monday, 19 January 2015 9:46:48 PM(UTC)
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Hi Fastlaners,

I recently replaced the ammeter in the sports dash of my HT Premier. The previous ammeter was blown out when a change over wiper motor seized and blew out the gauge. The wiper motor has now been reconditioned and works well.

The problem I have now is that the replacement ammeter only reads charge and reads much higher than I am comfortable with. If I pull the headlights on, the ammeter reads about 15 amps, if I put the dealer fitted A/C fan on, the ammeter starts to read up around 30 amps. If I put high beams and A/C the ammeter reads up to nearly 40 amps. Putting the indicators on even registers a small amount on the ammeter gauge every time the lights flash.

When everything electrical is turned off and the engine is running the ammeter reads about where it should. The car starts and runs really well.

When I turn anything electrical on and the engine is turned off, the ammeter never reads discharge.

I have disconnected the battery while I figure this out to avoid any burn outs.

Have I wired something incorrectly (I carefully marked everything before I removed the dash and gauges)? I am loathe to think the replacement ammeter is faulty as I had it checked at Ringwood Speedometer Service before I fitted it.

Is there any other simple explanation for this peculiar ammeter behavior, eg a short, etc?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated � I�m really hoping I don�t have to go through the hassle of pulling out the dash again � I was nervous enough about breaking something the first time, what with 40+ year old plastics etc.

Thanks Fastlaners

htprem
gm5735 Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, 19 January 2015 11:17:56 PM(UTC)
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Hello Nicholas.
It doesn't sound too hard to fix.
Are you using a GTS dash and wiring loom? That may change the following information somewhat.

You actually aren't reading charge, you are reading the entire electrical system load. In the standard setup, when the engine is running, the ammeter is connected in such a way as to only read the output current of the alternator to the battery, and no other electrical loads . It seems yours has been connected incorrectly.
A 12 gauge red cable runs from the alternator B+ terminal through a firewall grommet to the back of the ammeter. This terminal is located towards the centre of the car, and is stamped "GEN". It is referred to as "G" on the factory wiring diagram. If you have the standard loom this cable will have a "G" label on it.
The other side of the ammeter, (identified as the "B" terminal on the wiring diagram), is stamped "BAT", and has a red 12 gauge cable connected to it (marked with label "B") which goes to the engine harness plug on the firewall. This carries supply to the starter motor solenoid and, eventually, the battery + terminal.

In this way the ammeter is measuring only the output current of the alternator, when running, delivered to the battery.

The electrical loads of the car, including headlights, fans, indicators, and wiper motor are powered from one main cable, which comes from the ammeter. This is an additional cable, which is connected to the GEN terminal of the ammeter, along with the cable coming through the firewall from the alternator.
From your description I believe the main supply cable, which should be connected to the "GEN" terminal, is actually connected to the "BAT" terminal. This means that the ammeter will read every electrical load in the car while the engine is running, which is not what it is designed to do.

When the engine is stopped, and the battery IS being discharged, the ammeter should read about the numbers you described above.

By the way, the wiper motor should have a 15A fuse in the fuse box, which should have blown long before the ammeter was damaged. Not "strengthened" in any way was it?

As far as pulling the dash out goes, you shouldn't have to. Provided you are capable of standing on your head for an extended period both of the brass terminals on the rear of the ammeter are clearly visible from underneath the dash, as are the cable labels and the markings on the rear of the ammeter. (Unless, of course, you have a large air conditioning duct in the way!)You should see one wire on the BAT terminal, and two on the GEN terminal if it is wired correctly.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Geoff



Edited by user Monday, 19 January 2015 11:49:25 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

htprem Offline
#3 Posted : Tuesday, 20 January 2015 12:05:01 AM(UTC)
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Hi Geoff,

Thanks for your advice. The dash and loom is original GTS, not a hatcheted/modified standard loom.


I'll run through the wires one at a time as you suggest and check that everything is where it should be - I don't mind 'standing on my head' and I find mirrors can be useful for when one's neck gets sore!

I am pretty sure the main cable (from the alternator) is connected to the GEN side of the ammeter. From what you have suggested it is possible that I mixed up the other two wires. Would that still explain the behavior I am describing?

Cheers

Nick
gm5735 Offline
#4 Posted : Tuesday, 20 January 2015 1:18:41 AM(UTC)
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Hi Nick.
Yes. You should have two cables on the "gen" side of the ammeter, one from the alternator, and one to, from memory, the ignition switch, where it's spliced with one or two more cables.
The BAT side of the ammeter has only one cable, which goes to the firewall engine harness plug.

When you've mastered standing on your head, I thoroughly recommend doing a Fiat X19 clutch master cylinder. It's mounted under the dash, inside the car with a remote reservoir. I did one once with my legs hanging out of the sunroof and it took forever. After the quiet sobbing is over you can tell your physiotherapist all about it.
Gotta love Italian cars.
Dr Terry Offline
#5 Posted : Tuesday, 20 January 2015 2:36:40 AM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by gm5735
Hi Nick.
Yes. You should have two cables on the "gen" side of the ammeter, one from the alternator, and one to, from memory, the ignition switch, where it's spliced with one or two more cables.
The BAT side of the ammeter has only one cable, which goes to the firewall engine harness plug.


Spot on, 2 wires on the GEN side & only 1 on the BAT side. The ammeter is only registering current in or out of the battery.
quote:
Originally posted by gm5735
Hi Nick.
When you've mastered standing on your head, I thoroughly recommend doing a Fiat X19 clutch master cylinder. It's mounted under the dash, inside the car with a remote reservoir. I did one once with my legs hanging out of the sunroof and it took forever. After the quiet sobbing is over you can tell your physiotherapist all about it.
Gotta love Italian cars.


Yes, when mechanics stand around a BBQ, enjoying a beverage or 2, the subject of 'the worst job, or the worst car you've ever worked on' comes up.

It's funny how often Italian & French cars dominate the conversation.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
htprem Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, 20 January 2015 3:25:40 AM(UTC)
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Hi Dr Terry,

Thanks for your advice. I know for a fact that the Gen side definitely had 2 wires going to it when the ammeter went back in. I am hoping that when I get back to the vehicle to inspect the wiring that I find that I have the two wires which do not come from the alternator swapped around onto the wrong terminals. If they appear correct I think I might disconnect the ammeter wires and try to connect another ammeter to the circuit to see if I just have a faulty ammeter (although I suspect that ammeters either work, don;t work or are wired back to front). At least that way i won't have to pull the dash out again (rinking breakage due to brittleness of the plastic) unless I have no other choice.

On the subject of cars that were/are difficult to work on, I do have an Australian example - my sister's now defunct 4 cyl LC Torana S. I have quite large hands and I used to find something as simple as charging the plugs on that thing left me bordering on being curled up in the foetal position in a corner!

Thanks again

Nick
htprem Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, 20 January 2015 3:26:40 AM(UTC)
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Hi Geoff,

If your diagnosis helps me cure this problem, send me your next physio bill and its on me!

Nick
gm5735 Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, 20 January 2015 12:43:49 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Nick, although I hope I don't need it. Your ammeter won't need changing, as your description is comprehensive enough to confirm that it is working correctly, and to make me certain that the ignition feed cable is connected to the battery side of the ammeter, and not the "gen" terminal where it should be.

Terry, I'm surprised you didn't include pommy cars in your BBQ list. If not at the top, they must be in the top three.
A well known Morris/mini/Austin workshop in the Eastern suburbs of Melbourne used to have an annual Christmas BBQ and blow up party. Such was the seething resentment of pommy cars that a carefully selected victim, usually either a Morris 1100 or 1500 would get plenty of ignition advance, and then a housebrick placed on the accelerator and let rip at max RPM. A sweep was run on how long it would last.
I think the record was over 20 minutes before it threw a rod.
Murderous, but very therapeutic.
Dr Terry Offline
#9 Posted : Tuesday, 20 January 2015 6:03:43 PM(UTC)
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quote:
Originally posted by gm5735
Terry, I'm surprised you didn't include pommy cars in your BBQ list. If not at the top, they must be in the top three.
A well known Morris/mini/Austin workshop in the Eastern suburbs of Melbourne used to have an annual Christmas BBQ and blow up party. Such was the seething resentment of pommy cars that a carefully selected victim, usually either a Morris 1100 or 1500 would get plenty of ignition advance, and then a housebrick placed on the accelerator and let rip at max RPM. A sweep was run on how long it would last.
I think the record was over 20 minutes before it threw a rod. Murderous, but very therapeutic.


As bad as Pommy cars are to work on, I'll back the Italians or French every time. I will have to agree though, that they are in the top 3.

Where Pommy cars excel, is in the reliability stakes, or lack thereof. Triumph Stags, Rovers or Morris Marinas usually top the list there. Part of the problem was production line quality control, the British Leyland cars in particular, just fell apart as you watched.

I have a few mates who worked as mechanics in the UK. They tell of horror stories of some of the Eastern block cars that they saw in the 80s, they made the Pommy & Western European stuff look great. Little delights such as the Trabant, Lada, Moskvich, Dacias & Skodas (pre-VW). I think that us Aussies missed a few bullets there.

I think I've deviated off topic, just a bit.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
htprem Offline
#10 Posted : Thursday, 22 January 2015 5:41:47 AM(UTC)
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Hi Geoff and Dr Terry,

My ammeter is now working correctly!

Geoff's diagnosis that I had the wiring back to front was correct. I had the main feed from the alternator correctly wired to the GEN terminal on the back of the alternator, but I had the other two wires, labeled B and G on the wrong terminals (still don't know how I managed to do that). I spent 15 minutes with my head under the dash and cross checking the connections against the workshop manual wiring diagram. I swapped the B and G wires over and now the ammeter works precisely as it should. The gauge now correctly reads charge and discharge states and when all accessories are on, registers a far more sensible load.

Thanks for all of your advice/tips. Much appreciated.

Nick
gm5735 Offline
#11 Posted : Thursday, 22 January 2015 8:08:43 AM(UTC)
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Good news, and thanks for the feedback.
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