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If you look at a HT or HG order form there is no option for a 161 or a 253. Same as M15 manual. So to me you couldn't actually option a 161H engine or a 253 engine. If you wanted a 253 engine you actually ticked a different model at the top of the form.
It is strange though on the HG passenger order form there is an L21 engine option (161H) but no L33 (253L). The commercial order form has a blank space after L32 like there was meant to be an L33 or there was at least that option on the HT form but HG has no 253L to tick. So to get one of these you must have had to fill out the special instruction section of the form.
I just noticed in HK pricing also that a 186L is listed, first time i've ever seen it prior to HT. |
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Yes technically the LH Torana is the first passenger car from Holden that you could "option" a 253/4.2 litre engine.
However, there is an HK 253 technical manual. Too bad the 253 never made it into the HK.
Warren
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HQ Belmont 173 high comp is STD ? 173 low compression would be an option.
HQ Kingswood 173 high comp is STD ?
HQ Premier is a 202 high comp STD ? as it has a auto ?
HQ 253 has to be an option but for the SS.
Same with HT just add 161 and 186 for the Premier and
253 is an option.
As for the first optional 253 that's the HT low compression or twin exhaust optional one, I wonder if they jetted the carby differently to the single exhaust.
LH Torana is the first only optional 253 on it's own ? as their is no LH SS Torana.
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HQ Belmont was standard with 173HC or 253HC depending upon if it was a 6cyl model eg 80180 or V8 model eg 80280.
Same for Kingswood.
HQ Premier was standard with manual, it was HJ Premier and LS that was standard with auto. AFAIK even the Statesman models were standard with 3spd manual, so 202 or 253. Only Deville was auto standard.
SS is just a V8 Belmont sedan so had no optional engine just the standard 253HC.
HT was the same, ie 6cyl and V8 models.
Thus 253 was never an option you could tick a box for, just standard on all V8 models in HQ except for Deville (308) and GTS350 (350). If you wanted a 253 in your head you'd think you were requesting that option, but in reality the salesman put a tick in a box to order a totally different model which came standard with the 253 which also meant you got front discs (if not already standard due to other reasons) and a Salisbury rear axle (except tonner which had a Salsbury std). It wasn't until LH and HJ that things went back to the HK way where there was only one model per lux level and body shape and you optioned from there.
As far as i'm aware there was no different engine ior engine tune for any cars optioned with twin exhaust. You could option N10 on all HK-HG V8 other than I think Brougham or the GTS's where it was already standard. Same with HQ-HZ except no N10 exhaust on Commercials and there may be other models where it was not available.
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quote:
Originally posted by Warren Turnbull
Yes technically the LH Torana is the first passenger car from Holden that you could "option" a 253/4.2 litre engine.
However, there is an HK 253 technical manual. Too bad the 253 never made it into the HK.
Warren
That's true for the L32 253HC, but the L33 253LC was an option for HT-HJ. Dr Terry |
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I can't find it on order forms Terry? We know you could get it but unlike the 161LC and 173LC it must have been a special order. But you are spot on the 253 LC was an optional engine, as were the 161 and 173LC engines. |
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quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
HQ Belmont was standard with 173HC or 253HC depending upon if it was a 6cyl model eg 80180 or V8 model eg 80280.
Same for Kingswood.
HQ Premier was standard with manual, it was HJ Premier and LS that was standard with auto. AFAIK even the Statesman models were standard with 3spd manual, so 202 or 253. Only Deville was auto standard.
SS is just a V8 Belmont sedan so had no optional engine just the standard 253HC.
HT was the same, ie 6cyl and V8 models.
Thus 253 was never an option you could tick a box for, just standard on all V8 models in HQ except for Deville (308) and GTS350 (350). If you wanted a 253 in your head you'd think you were requesting that option, but in reality the salesman put a tick in a box to order a totally different model which came standard with the 253 which also meant you got front discs (if not already standard due to other reasons) and a Salisbury rear axle (except tonner which had a Salsbury std). It wasn't until LH and HJ that things went back to the HK way where there was only one model per lux level and body shape and you optioned from there.
As far as i'm aware there was no different engine ior engine tune for any cars optioned with twin exhaust. You could option N10 on all HK-HG V8 other than I think Brougham or the GTS's where it was already standard. Same with HQ-HZ except no N10 exhaust on Commercials and there may be other models where it was not available.
There is no N10 on any 307, or the Brougham. HQ SS was not just a Belmont, she got the high performance 253 N10 and all. HQ SS can't just be a Belmont it's a model on it's own.
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I believe that castellan is correct about the N10 (dual exhaust) not being an option for the 307 V8.
Having said that, I cannot agree that the HQ SS is a "model on its own".
The model code for an HQ SS is the same as a 'normal' Belmont V8 sedan i.e. 80269.
The SS was an 'option package' built on the 80269 model, its code number being XV2.
Also, to my knowledge, there is no difference between a 253 V8 with a single exhaust system & one with a dual exhaust system, other than the exhaust plumbing itself. The 185 bhp output rating was carried out on an engine dyno with no accessories or either exhaust system. This is the difference between 'gross' & 'net' hp ratings.
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N10 was optional in HK-G on all V8's. It was $60 in the July 30 1968 price list. It was even a normal option tick box on the order forms I've seen for both passenger and commercial, and the only qualifications against it are V8 models only exc Brougham.
As far as i'm aware N10 was also optional on all HQ-HZ passenger short wheel base ie sedan and coupe. Whilst the SS was a package special like a Sandman it was just a group of mainly normal options available on the base vehicle but like HQ Sandman it got blackouts and 3 x non-optional items on Belmont: GTS guards, sports steering wheel and console shift. |
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I know it's not always a good idea to rely only on part catalogues as a guide to option availability, but the HK parts book shows no dual system other than the standard GTS 327 item. All the exhaust components listed for the 307 are for a single system, with the 2-piece Y-pipe off the manifolds & a single entry muffler, which is the same item as that seen on the 186S system. No mention of an optional V8 dual system anywhere. The dual inlet, dual outlet muffler is only listed as being a 327 item.
Byron, the price list you have, is it a GM-H issued list, or is it a dealer price list ? It would be easy for a dealer to fit 327 bits from the parts dept. to a 307 car & call it an 'option'. A bit like L34 flares on non-L34 SL/R5000s.
I remember back in the 70s, a mate owned a very tidy GTS with a 307/M21 & wanted to fit a dual system. He was pricing around at the various exhaust fitters, but in the end he just sourced all the genuine 327 exhaust bits from a Holden dealer & fitted it himself.
He used my hoist at the time & I remember how well made it was with the neat resonators as part of the engine pipe near the manifold.
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It is on July 22 and July 30 price lists issued for on sale dates of Brougham and Monaro models. It is also on the same paperwork for Commercials issued in August 1968. Plus it is on order forms, will check if it is in the Engineering Technical manuals as well. |
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It's the same story in the HT parts book. Dual system parts are listed for 253, 308 and 350. Only single system parts are listed for 307.
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As Terry says parts catalogues are the least reliable resource. It is entirely possible the price info is there for only special order situations but the fact it is priced means it was available, in HK at least. Maybe not to the general public but at least to those with access to the ability to place such orders. |
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Does the 307 dual exhaust option get a mention in any HK sales brochure ?
If they did fit a dual system as a genuine option, I guess that they would use the 327 bits, because no others are mentioned.
I wonder then what happened with the LH engine pipe.
With the regular 307 engine pipes, the LH pipe is different between Powerglide & Saginaw, the RH pipe is the same for both transmissions.
It seems unusual to offer a factory option, yet not have spare parts listed or available.
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HK option list staes N10 as standard on GTS 327 and not available on any other vehicle,which is probably left over from when the GTS 327 was going to be an option on the GTS model. However Byron has it on a price list and an order form.
This is thee great debate with Holden, sometimes errors are made and then someone has to find which is correct. Sometimes we get it wrong, which then causes more problems.
As there is no difference in dual exhaust on 350 manual and auto, then I would guess that 307 dual exhaust would be the same.
Warren
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Good point Doc. Doesn't the 327's exhaust work with a powerglide? Is the HT GTS350's exhaust that different to the HK? It works with a powerglide.
There are many instances of not normally available combinations of parts not appearing in parts catalogues or brochures yet cars exist. For one L30 M41 HQ utes and wagons. (I just amended this to remove L31 M41 HJ tonner as I found its reference in late HJ parts catalogues).
I agree though that is an obscure and elusive item. $60 on a $3500ish car is a lot of money though, equivalent of $600 on a $35000 car today. One other intesting option also was XAS radials, but I guess the $150 or so premium was a lot of money too.
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The GTS 327 Supplementary Parts Catalogue ( # M36567 ) lists ONLY the parts peculiar to or first introduced with the Monaro GTS 327. On page 8 Shows; Under Sec. 3.609. The Exhaust Pipe & Resonator assembly and intermediate pipe, Under Sec.3.701 Muffler & Rear Exhaust Pipe Assembly. Under 3.705. Muffler Tail Pipe and Under Sec. 3.706 "Clamp, "U" Bolt, Nut and Washer. Does'nt This mean that these parts were NOT std on any other vehicles i.e the 307 V8. ?
Jack
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quote:
Originally posted by blameyone
The GTS 327 Supplementary Parts Catalogue ( # M36567 ) lists ONLY the parts peculiar to or first introduced with the Monaro GTS 327. On page 8 Shows; Under Sec. 3.609. The Exhaust Pipe & Resonator assembly and intermediate pipe, Under Sec.3.701 Muffler & Rear Exhaust Pipe Assembly. Under 3.705. Muffler Tail Pipe and Under Sec. 3.706 "Clamp, "U" Bolt, Nut and Washer. Does'nt This mean that these parts were NOT std on any other vehicles i.e the 307 V8. ?
Jack
To me it means the parts were first introduced for GTS327. Is the Saginaw transmission and 10 bolt rear axle in there? Radius rods? These were all for GTS327 but also available on HK GTS. |
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Holden HQ Belmont SS it must be then, not a HQ SS.
Holden HK Monaro GTS 327 is a model in it's own right as is the Brougham.
HT HG and HQ have 6 cyl and V8 codes making them a model in their own right as well as the GTS 350 and Brougham.
HQ only Monaro GTS and Monaro GTS 350 are a model in their own right, as are the May 1973 on Monaro GTS sedan and Monaro GTS 350 sedan.
Now how about the 1 tonne she did not get a V8 till Feb 1973 ?
With the HJ on we have no prejuds between 6 and V8 but Statesman and GTS have only V8's.
HX-Z Sandman only have V8's
Torana XU-1 is a GTR XU-1 and never a XU-1
Torana LH SL/R 5000 is a option.
Torana LX SS A9X is just an option.
Commodore VK SS is just an option, as are all the Commodores after it.
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HQ SS and GTS sedan and GTS350 sedan were meant to be seen as a separate vehicle, just like the XU1 and the SLR5000. They were built as special vehicle packages, but they aren't separate models as such hence the way they are treated with regards to what was standard and what was optional is different to other cars. The easiest example to see is the 2 x GTS350 vehicles after late 1972. The coupe is its own model, look at the mechanical options line on the body ID tag - it is blank (unless auto or non-standard diff ratio optioned). The sedan uses a Kingswood model code, and the standard driveline there was L32 M15 GV1, but as the XW8 GTS350 special vehicle package added L30 and MC7 the ID plate shows these.
That is correct, HJ-HZ use one model code for each lux level and body style, whereas HT-HQ used two (one for 6cyl and one for V8).
That is correct, there was no cab-chassis V8 model until 1973.
HX Sandman was standard with 202.
SLR5000 is a special vehicle package (XU2) which adds options to an SL/R. As does selecting the L34 engine option add more options.
A9X was also a special vehicle package applied slightly differently afaik, it is XU2+A9X on an SL/R and L31+A9X on an SS. |
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