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HQ 202 Badge colour - Dr Terry
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justgm Offline
#1 Posted : Sunday, 11 December 2022 6:03:58 PM(UTC)
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I thought the 202-badge changed from RED to Black at series 2 HQ ...mid 1973? can anyone confirm this? Thanks Mark.
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HK1837 Offline
#2 Posted : Sunday, 11 December 2022 6:26:31 PM(UTC)
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It's funny that you refer to the 1973/4 HQ as "series 2". Although it is technically wrong, it is basically what happened. GMH were in turmoil with inflation, oil "crisis" on the horizon, Federal Government in a bit of turmoil (which saw Labor take power in 1973) and other factors. This all seeing plans for WA scrapped, TA filling a gap until Gemini ready, the HQ update cancelled (HV or HU depending upon who you talk to, later becoming the HJ) and on top of this the totally new LH Torana in development. So the HQ was given a decent update and plodded along until HJ was finally released.

Not sure about the 202 badge, I remember seeing them but I always walked past anything at the wreckers with 4 or 6 cylinders in the 80's and concentrated on V8, Monaro, Statesman etc. I have probably 1000 badges in my shed taken off wrecks in the 80's, I don't think there is a 6cyl badge amongst them, maybe a 186S. If someone invents a machine that can look through my eyes in those days I could easily help!
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Smitty2 on 11/12/2022(UTC)
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#3 Posted : Sunday, 11 December 2022 6:51:22 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
It's funny that you refer to the 1973/4 HQ as "series 2". Although it is technically wrong, it is basically what happened. GMH were in turmoil with inflation, oil "crisis" on the horizon, Federal Government in a bit of turmoil (which saw Labor take power in 1973) and other factors. This all seeing plans for WA scrapped, TA filling a gap until Gemini ready, the HQ update cancelled (HV or HU depending upon who you talk to, later becoming the HJ) and on top of this the totally new LH Torana in development. So the HQ was given a decent update and plodded along until HJ was finally released.

.................



yes to all that, and some of us (me included) use the new Series 2 moniker for the Qs that got seat head restraints with a change of seat vinyl, different coloured front indicators and metric speedos
but
my father bought an early HQ Kingswood and I could swear (but could be wrong) that 202 boot badge was black
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HK1837 Offline
#4 Posted : Sunday, 11 December 2022 7:50:02 PM(UTC)
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I think head rests came early, like in late ‘71 or early ‘72. But one big ticket item in that “series” change timeframe was retractable seat belts in passenger vehicles (commercials didn’t see it until 1975). Hence the change in HQ consoles as there was no need to store buckles anymore.
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Dr Terry Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, 12 December 2022 6:58:04 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
I think head rests came early, like in late ‘71 or early ‘72. But one big ticket item in that “series” change timeframe was retractable seat belts in passenger vehicles (commercials didn’t see it until 1975). Hence the change in HQ consoles as there was no need to store buckles anymore.


Series 2 HQ is a bit like series 2 VL Commodore, there is no such thing in reality.

Indeed there were quite a few updates that appeared in 1973 for HQs, but not all exactly at the same time. The trim material & seat recliner change appeared together AFAIK, but the orange front blinkers entered production earlier (late 1972 for some plants) & the metric speedos later in 1973.

I can't answer when the 202 badge changed from red to black, but it did happen around that Feb/March 1973 timeframe.

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HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Monday, 12 December 2022 8:47:50 AM(UTC)
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Agree Terry as per my prior post. It probably should have been called a HQ extension or similar.
It is quite funny in retrospect, that GMH decided it was important to update the HT to HG as it was not desirable to continue HT long enough to meet the delay to the replacement North American design HQ. Yet only a few years later the HQ continued well past the planned HV/HU with only minor visual updates when compared to the HT-HG update which was pretty minor itself when compared to say HD-HR or HK-HT.
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justgm Offline
#7 Posted : Monday, 12 December 2022 8:59:52 AM(UTC)
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HQ "Model update" seems to have started in NZ in June 1973 , orange indicators , KM speedo,silver outlight of gauges gone, new long grain upholstery and new colours new paint colours and PVC changes on engines. No headrests or retractable belts.
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HK1837 Offline
#8 Posted : Monday, 12 December 2022 9:16:34 AM(UTC)
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There were lots of paint and trim changes during HQ, there is at least 3 generations of trim codes from memory with 1x, 2x, 3x codes. There was (again from memory) at least 3 x different sets of paint colours plus the bulk of HJ colours on late HQ. Might be more, haven’t looked at paint charts for a long time.

ADR27 gear started around August 1973 and was basically on all engines by October 1973 (this is why GMH pushed through those last 150 XU1 in September as that car would not have complied), but ADR27 got pushed back at the request of Ford and Chrysler and it doesn’t officially apply until about 4/74.
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Premier 350 Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, 14 December 2022 7:13:58 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Agree Terry as per my prior post. It probably should have been called a HQ extension or similar.
It is quite funny in retrospect, that GMH decided it was important to update the HT to HG as it was not desirable to continue HT long enough to meet the delay to the replacement North American design HQ. Yet only a few years later the HQ continued well past the planned HV/HU with only minor visual updates when compared to the HT-HG update which was pretty minor itself when compared to say HD-HR or HK-HT.


Do you have any sources for the "Nth American HQ" claim? Not looking to start a ****fight, just disageeeing.
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HK1837 Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, 14 December 2022 7:22:32 PM(UTC)
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I could write a whole book on it, there is so much evidence that the HQ didn’t originate here. Too much to explain without an hour to spare. The evidence is overwhelming though.
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AC Offline
#11 Posted : Thursday, 15 December 2022 12:23:18 AM(UTC)
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David Burrell has written many insightful articles on vehicle design and this link features the HQ. It is not onerous and is worthwhile viewing.

https://www.shannons.com...3O911M/index.html?page=1

Edited by user Thursday, 15 December 2022 12:27:45 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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HK1837 Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, 15 December 2022 8:20:14 AM(UTC)
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When I get time I’ll post up some stuff to think about in a separate thread. Read that article on the Shannon’s site and have a think about what the HQ is compared to the Holdens prior to it. Look at the timing claimed in that article for the images and when HQ’s were first made (not released but made). I’ll fill in the blanks later. Forget what you’ve been told and think hard about it.
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Premier 350 on 16/12/2022(UTC)
AC Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, 15 December 2022 12:52:20 PM(UTC)
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Intriguing, HK1937. I look forward to reading your post.

Edited by user Thursday, 15 December 2022 12:52:55 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified
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Premier 350 on 16/12/2022(UTC)
Bollicks Offline
#14 Posted : Friday, 16 December 2022 2:42:03 PM(UTC)
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My father had a 73 202 Kingswood (can't say what month) in NZ, metric speedo and definately black 202 boot badge.
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Warren Turnbull Offline
#15 Posted : Friday, 16 December 2022 5:22:12 PM(UTC)
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GMH did mark the changes in HQ, there are series I,II,II,IV and V and they are easy to identify, AHQ/BHQ/CHQ/DHQ and EHQ chassis prefix. What is claimed to be a series II above is actually a series III, if you want to use series.

That is why you cannot use series on these older cars. IMO
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Smitty2 on 15/05/2024(UTC)
HK1837 Offline
#16 Posted : Friday, 16 December 2022 5:39:27 PM(UTC)
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Those are ADR revisions Warren but a point well made. They aren’t deliberate mid series updates though. We all know though that GMH revamped HQ after there was no ready replacement after HV cancellation amongst other factors. WB also had A, B, C, D and EWB. LX had A, B , C and DLX.
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Belmont186 Offline
#17 Posted : Wednesday, 15 May 2024 2:28:32 AM(UTC)
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I drove a 1972 HQ Premier as a late-model used car in the mid-to-late 1970s, and it had the red 202 badge on the bootlid.
Look, I may be wrong about this, but it was clear to me (and to others who drove the car) that it was punchier and more urgent in its acceleration than the usual Kingswood 202 - and a close relative had one of those at the same time. The explanation that I was told was that the red-badge 202 was the high-compression version. The high-compression version was optional in the same way the 186S was optional in the HK/HT/HG, but ALL Premiers got the peppier version 202 as the standard six. The high-compression 202 had red paint infill on the badge.

I'll tell you an interesting anecdote about the hi-comp 202. Back in the day, I took the car to what you would now call a "track day" at Warwick Farm racetrack. It was organised as advanced driver education and Peter Wherret ran these days and employed well-known racing drivers to ride with participants and give advice on cornering lines etc. John Leffler was one of these drivers, if memory serves; but there were several others and it was pot luck who hopped in your car. The HQ Premier Tri-matic 202 astonished the instructor who said it almost felt like a 253 V8 at the top end of 1st and 2nd gears... and he had ridden in a lot of Holden sixes. But he hadn't ridden in a Premier before with the high-compression 202.

Holden had a long history of tweaking the "red six" with warmed-over versions of the 179 and 186. It seems to me they continued this tradition in a low-key sort of way with the high-compression 202 in some early HQs. I thought it was common knowledge what the red badge meant. What I'm not sure about is whether it was just the compression that was different or whether some other things were special such as maybe the distributor base (for better springs/weights that "recurved" the ignition timing), or the carb main jet, etc.

Even years before before ADR 27A, California-inspired emission requirements were gradually being legislated through 1973-1975, and this may be the reason red-badge 202's disappeared after 1972. It was getting complicated to have different versions of engines that played a bit fast and loose with air:fuel ratios, ignition timings, etc.

On another matter, the head restraints might have appeared in 1973 on most HQ models, but the Premier had them even on the bench seat version from the very start of the HQ run in 1971/2.

Edited by user Wednesday, 15 May 2024 3:01:52 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Added detail, spelling error
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HK1837 Offline
#18 Posted : Wednesday, 15 May 2024 6:54:43 AM(UTC)
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The only really high compression 202 was the one used in LJ XU1. The regular 202 was everywhere, it was the standard L20 9.4:1 engine (known as the high compression 202) with a tiny little 149 camshaft, heaps smaller cam than what was fitted to HT-HG 186 (they had the 186S camshaft except Trimatic versions). GMH did make a low compression 202 code L23 but it was officially for export only, although some existed here after the low compression 173 was gone from Holden (not in HQ though). There were some L23 powered local HQ's built though, but very rare. Of maybe 5500 HQ's I have all the details of, only two of them have L23 engines, one Premier sedan, one Belmont sedan. The Premier was an export vehicle. Scrolling the the GMH records there are a significant amount of QM prefixed engines that are not export vehicles, but almost always Belmont sedans or wagons. I'd say by far and away they are all Fleet Orders. If a regular Retail or Stock Order vehicle needed low comp they would be a 173 QE engine. To this day scrolling I have never yet found an L32 QS engine either, these are meant to have been export only too. Having said that no export vehicles in the records show engine numbers.

If you had a 202 Premier that felt like it was fast it will have almost certainly have been because it had an optional rear axle. I remember HQ V8 cab-chassis and HJ cab-chassis optioned with 4.2 always felt fast too, it was because they had 3.55 rear axles instead of the 3.08 most other 253 powered HQ's and 4.2 powered HJ had. Standard rear axle for a HQ Premier with 202 auto was 3.36. It could have been optioned with a 3.55:1 or 3.90:1 called "performance rear axle" for either of the options.

Edited by user Wednesday, 15 May 2024 1:03:31 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Typo

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#19 Posted : Wednesday, 15 May 2024 8:06:43 AM(UTC)
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I remember my mother's 149 powered EH wagon felt quite peppy, even peppier when dad had a GEM reconditioned 161 HC engine fitted. It had the std 3.55:1 ratio diff. The diff ratio makes all the diff.
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#20 Posted : Wednesday, 15 May 2024 8:07:22 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: Belmont186 Go to Quoted Post
On another matter, the head restraints might have appeared in 1973 on most HQ models, but the Premier had them even on the bench seat version from the very start of the HQ run in 1971/2.


Head restraints in HQ were optional for all models from SOP (July 71). They became standard (mandatory) equipment for all cars for ADR 22 (1/72).

Dr Terry

Edited by user Wednesday, 15 May 2024 8:10:38 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling

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