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149 Timing
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HQ_SS_Andy Offline
#1 Posted : Monday, 1 July 2024 8:01:30 PM(UTC)
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I always thought that timing on motors in general should be set to spec with vacuum advance disconnected and the hose plugged.
I'm sure I used to do this on my 138 grey motor.

Reading my EH workshop manual carefully, it doesn't say to do this, unless you have a Hydramatic.
Is it correct to set timing on a manual 149 to be 5deg BTDC with vacuum advance still connected ?

Thanks in advance.
Rgds.
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HK1837 Offline
#2 Posted : Monday, 1 July 2024 9:29:31 PM(UTC)
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Manuals use ported vacuum and thus have no vacuum to the carby port at idle. Autos need the advance at idle to increase idle speed to overcome the converter in Drive, hence the port has full manifold vacuum. That is why you only need to disconnect it on an auto.
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HQ_SS_Andy Offline
#3 Posted : Monday, 1 July 2024 10:24:28 PM(UTC)
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Thanks HK.
I've definitely got vacuum advance at idle. But idle spec is 500rpm, and it's difficult to get it down that low.
I think it's around 650rpm. So I suppose at 650, is has enough vacuum to operate the advance.

It actually runs really nicely, but seems very rich. The plugs are fouling in quick time with soot, and the exhaust is very sooty.
I've wound the idle mixture screw in until it starts to stumble, and then wound it out slightly to recover. Idle mixture is about as lean as I can get it.

Any ideas on what might be causing this sooty situation ?
Rgds.
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Sandaro Offline
#4 Posted : Monday, 1 July 2024 11:29:26 PM(UTC)
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Have you checked the float level isn't too high?
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HQ_SS_Andy on 4/07/2024(UTC)
HQ_SS_Andy Offline
#5 Posted : Monday, 1 July 2024 11:46:26 PM(UTC)
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No I haven't Sandaro.
Thanks for the suggestion. I will check this out.
Rgds.
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HK1837 Offline
#6 Posted : Tuesday, 2 July 2024 7:04:37 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HQ_SS_Andy Go to Quoted Post
Thanks HK.
I've definitely got vacuum advance at idle. But idle spec is 500rpm, and it's difficult to get it down that low.
I think it's around 650rpm. So I suppose at 650, is has enough vacuum to operate the advance.

It actually runs really nicely, but seems very rich. The plugs are fouling in quick time with soot, and the exhaust is very sooty.
I've wound the idle mixture screw in until it starts to stumble, and then wound it out slightly to recover. Idle mixture is about as lean as I can get it.

Any ideas on what might be causing this sooty situation ?
Rgds.


It may not be the original carby, it might be an auto carb off something else? Might explain it being rich and having vacuum at idle? Or the carby might just need a rebuild and the vacuum at idle is due to the reasons you stated. They shouldn't have much or any vacuum advance at idle though as the vacuum source is at atmospheric pressure or at least close to it.

Edited by user Tuesday, 2 July 2024 7:05:39 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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Dr Terry Offline
#7 Posted : Tuesday, 2 July 2024 8:35:59 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HQ_SS_Andy Go to Quoted Post
Thanks HK.
I've definitely got vacuum advance at idle. But idle spec is 500rpm, and it's difficult to get it down that low.
I think it's around 650rpm. So I suppose at 650, is has enough vacuum to operate the advance.

It actually runs really nicely, but seems very rich. The plugs are fouling in quick time with soot, and the exhaust is very sooty.
I've wound the idle mixture screw in until it starts to stumble, and then wound it out slightly to recover. Idle mixture is about as lean as I can get it.

Any ideas on what might be causing this sooty situation ?
Rgds.


There is something very wrong here.

Firstly, a stock 149 should easily have its idle set at 500 RPM or even lower.

Secondly, as already mentioned, the fact you have vacuum at idle indicates the wrong carby base (or complete carby), or that the throttle plate is set so high as to uncover the vacuum ports (maybe resulting in the fast idle).

Start with the float level check & then find the carby ID number, so we can identify your carby.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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HQ_SS_Andy Offline
#8 Posted : Tuesday, 2 July 2024 5:24:25 PM(UTC)
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Thanks all for taking the time to respond.
I will check float level on the weekend.

In the meantime, the carb base has 'BXUV-2' and '2376050' cast into it.

The carb itself has:
  • '2376500' in a circle and '213' in a diamond below this, on the front.

  • '2376068' and '1 3/32' in a circle on the side near the fuel inlet.


Hopefully this will help identify the carb.
Rgds.
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Dr Terry Offline
#9 Posted : Wednesday, 3 July 2024 6:35:06 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HQ_SS_Andy Go to Quoted Post
Thanks all for taking the time to respond.
I will check float level on the weekend.

In the meantime, the carb base has 'BXUV-2' and '2376050' cast into it.

The carb itself has:
  • '2376500' in a circle and '213' in a diamond below this, on the front.

  • '2376068' and '1 3/32' in a circle on the side near the fuel inlet.


Hopefully this will help identify the carb.
Rgds.


Those casting numbers will be common across many different carbies.

The important ID number is a small stamping in the top part of the carby, it is in the form 23-3xxx.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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HQ_SS_Andy Offline
#10 Posted : Wednesday, 3 July 2024 2:56:36 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Terry.
I've had another look, and stamped just below the hold-down bar on the top of the carb is 23-3019-6-27.

Rgds.
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HK1837 Offline
#11 Posted : Wednesday, 3 July 2024 3:16:24 PM(UTC)
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According to another thread here, Dr Terry said "1-3/32" carby off 149 & 161 from Nov 65 (HD) to HG & 2250/2600 LC - manual trans only"

https://www.fastlane.com...stst30702_23-3019.aspx?=
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HQ_SS_Andy on 4/07/2024(UTC)
Dr Terry Offline
#12 Posted : Thursday, 4 July 2024 7:48:19 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
According to another thread here, Dr Terry said "1-3/32" carby off 149 & 161 from Nov 65 (HD) to HG & 2250/2600 LC - manual trans only"

https://www.fastlane.com...stst30702_23-3019.aspx?=


That's how the Bendix-Stromberg book lists it, so the carby is a the right size with jetting that's close enough, so the only issues here are: the rich running (possibly high float level) & the vacuum at idle which suggests that it might have an auto trans base fitted in lieu of the original manual base.

Many mechanics wouldn't know the difference. It could be that the throttle shaft was worn out, so they got another base from their box of miscellaneous carby parts bin & fitted it. The only difference between the two is where it's drilled for the vacuum advance port. Manuals are just above the throttle plate (when closed) while autos are just below it. A difference of no more than 1-2mm.

Dr Terry
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HQ_SS_Andy on 4/07/2024(UTC)
HQ_SS_Andy Offline
#13 Posted : Thursday, 4 July 2024 3:02:09 PM(UTC)
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Excellent info gentlemen. Thank you.
I will check float level and vacuum port position on the weekend.
Rgds.
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HQ_SS_Andy Offline
#14 Posted : Saturday, 6 July 2024 10:47:07 PM(UTC)
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Pulled the carb off today and the distributor vacuum port is definitely well below the throttle plate (indicated by red arrow).


But I am a bit confused after checking my parts manual. It indicates that all EH and HD 149 carbs had the same carb base. And all EH and HD 179 carbs had the same base. Regardless of auto or manual:


So now I'm wondering if the bases used for these carbs had manifold vacuum or ported vacuum for the distributor connection (and whether mine is suitable for my manual car).

Rgds,
Andrew.
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Dr Terry Offline
#15 Posted : Sunday, 7 July 2024 9:58:16 AM(UTC)
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It is confusing & yes you are correct the carby bases were the same for M/T & A/T before Nov 1965.

To my knowledge the vacuum port in the early cars was a compromise where the vacuum came in very early & so early in fact with the an A/T in drive, the dissy saw 'some' vacuum which is why they say to remove the hose & block it off when setting base timing.

From Nov 1965 onwards they made a clear distinction between the M/T & A/T vacuum setups. With full vacuum it results in a more stable idle in drive, this in not required for an M/T.

I think what you have there is a late A/T carby base. Find an M/T base if you have an M/T.

Getting back to your original dramas, none of this will result in sooty black spark plugs.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
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HQ_SS_Andy Offline
#16 Posted : Sunday, 7 July 2024 12:32:10 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Dr Terry.
I'll keep an eye out for a manual base. In fact I'd like to find a complete original EH carb. The book says they had 149 stamped on the front. Do you know if this was the case right through EH production ?

Measured float level today. The book says 5/8" - 11/16", which is 15.9--17.5mm. Mine measures around 20mm.
So the float level is low.
I've run out of ideas...

Rgds.
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Sandaro Offline
#17 Posted : Wednesday, 10 July 2024 6:11:22 PM(UTC)
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I don't have any theories to this suggestion, but you should get the fuel level in the correct range.
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