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hk ht hg owner drivers club of australia
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quote:
Originally posted by dirty davo
quote:
Originally posted by rodders
Build it and they will come.....So will I!!
Saw a HK Panel Van today at the back of a house I was doing a garden quote on....GTS guards, fantastic condition body wise, 307 and powerglide and the guy said it was his cousins and that was how his cousin ordered it from the factory?....Did they do that sort of combo for a van? It was bloody fantastic, i nearly had a "crisis" !!
Rod
Suttons Holden in Chullora (sydney) did a run of 6 x V8 vans in early '71.
all on th lot together. monaro colours,& side winder stripes with gts bonnet, but only std guards, hussler mags, 253 or 308, man & auto,10bolt LSD sals diff & tramprods,etc. maybe gts dash & possibly some were buckets & T bar with console??
coz they sold within cuppla weeks, they did another run of 186S ones after that!!!
does anyone have any info on these????
The only one ive documented so far is a 2/71 HG, yellow dolly,side winder stripes (on sides but not on bonnet), 253 3spd column manual with bench seat (obviously aimed at th tradies), 10 bolt, tramprods, & husslers.
imagine th ultimate being 308, sag 4spd, monaro buckets & console etc ??
Havnt worked out how to post pics on here yet,so look up my facebook (david smith) for sum interesting pics!!!!!!!!!!!
any info or others of this batch would be excellent, or any info or real pics of th 1970 HT Ute named "Be-Ute" finished in "Torrid Violet" duco & featuring many GTS Monaro components. (Built in GMH Styling Dept.)which is in "THE HISTORY OF HOLDEN SINCE 1917. BY NORM DARWIN"
will contact norm personally to find out if he has more info on this one..
I wonder how they did them and made money? Must have been expensive. Just to get a 10-bolt as a Nasco part and fit it would have cost a fortune in those days. Let alone the GTS bonnet. Maybe we can thank Suttons for planting the Sandman idea with GMH? Agree a 307 or 308 4spd HK-HG commercial with buckets and 10 bolt would have been a blast. Probably no chance of a console though in a commercial if anything like HQ was. |
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I well remember a Lina-Mint HG panel van on show at the 1970 Sydney Motor Show with a 308 V8, 4-sp, centre console, bucket seats, carpets, GTS instruments & bonnet. Stretching the memory I know, but I think it also had the same Hustler mags as the Be-Ute.
The interest in this van at the show would have been the impetus for Suttons to build the vans mentioned.
Given the show van, I can't understand how it took GM-H so long to catch on to the van craze. I worked at a taxi base in the 1971 when the HQ was released. By the end of that year there were 4 guys who worked there, diving fully optioned 308 HQ panel vans. These were basically Sandmans without the decals.
Dr Terry |
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I've actually come across a fair few pre Sandman HQ utes and vans in 308 M21 build spec, many have bench seats though. Only thing they wouldn't have been able to order that was part of HQ Sandman was the console. Plus the feature changes: GTS guards, GTS headlight surrounds, 140MPH speedo, GTS steering wheel emblem, stripes, paint blackouts and rocker panel moulding removal (Kingswood only). Amazing how prevelant pre-Sandman utes and vans like this were compared to HK-HG examples. I've seen the odd 186 or 186S M21 HK van before, but very rarely seen (or heard) of a 307 HK or HT example. There seems to be a reasonable amount of 253 HT-HG around, I don't think i've ever heard of a genuine 308 HT-HG though although i'm sure some were made, I do have documentation stating for HG that 308 M21 was basically not available outside of GTS for much of HG. |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
I well remember a Lina-Mint HG panel van on show at the 1970 Sydney Motor Show with a 308 V8, 4-sp, centre console, bucket seats, carpets, GTS instruments & bonnet. Stretching the memory I know, but I think it also had the same Hustler mags as the Be-Ute.
The interest in this van at the show would have been the impetus for Suttons to build the vans mentioned.
Given the show van, I can't understand how it took GM-H so long to catch on to the van craze. I worked at a taxi base in the 1971 when the HQ was released. By the end of that year there were 4 guys who worked there, diving fully optioned 308 HQ panel vans. These were basically Sandmans without the decals.
Dr Terry
Thanks for that Terry, very interesting stuff. Would love to see pics of that one! What month was that in 1970?? As lina mint, verdoro green met (2nd type)& yellow dolly, were'nt introduced till 1971 that makes for one interesting beast!! Which reminds me of an original Lakeside Green HT GTS Monaro at Bendigo Holden Day in aug 2009. I have some pics on file somewhere,& will post up on my FB page later regards dave www.bellarineclassicautos.com.auFB david smith
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quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
. Only thing they wouldn't have been able to order that was part of HQ Sandman was the console.
I don't think i've ever heard of a genuine 308 HT-HG though although i'm sure some were made, I do have documentation stating for HG that 308 M21 was basically not available outside of GTS for much of HG.
Wasn't the console available for any M21 or M40 floor shift as long as it had bucket seats ? I've seen several genuine HG 308 utes & panel vans with factory Salisbury rear axles, in both M21 & M40 T-Bar. Dr Terry |
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quote:
Originally posted by dirty davo
What month was that in 1970??
The first XU-1s were there as well, so it must have been Aug/Sept 1970 Dr Terry |
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Was the long shifter assemblies available for the saginaws? I was under the impression the long shifter was only for the Opel 4 speed but could also be had with a short shifter. Does anyone here have any evidence to support that any long shift Saginaw cars were built? (long shifter= no console)
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No, there were no long lever Saginaws in Holdens.
The long lever Opels used linkages which basically carried over from the HR series. To my knowledge, the only difference between the two were that the HR had a lever made of round rod & the HK/T/G lever was made of flat bar. Both long lever types could be had with a front bench seat. They sat further forward than the short lever versions.
I believe all short lever Opels & all M21/M22 boxes had the centre console as a mandatory fitment, is this correct ??
Dr Terry |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
No, there were no long lever Saginaws in Holdens.
The long lever Opels used linkages which basically carried over from the HR series. To my knowledge, the only difference between the two were that the HR had a lever made of round rod & the HK/T/G lever was made of flat bar. Both long lever types could be had with a front bench seat. They sat further forward than the short lever versions.
I believe all short lever Opels & all M21/M22 boxes had the centre console as a mandatory fitment, is this correct ??
Dr Terry
I remember a one owner HK kingswood ute with 307 sag & long stick, bench seat & rubber floor mat with just rubber boot on floor. Was beige & had just taken canopy off & was for sale at ballarat swap for 7grand in 1997. if i had the readies i would o snavled it on th day. Everyone said it was too dear & he took it back home. never heard a thing about that again
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quote:
Originally posted by dirty davo
I remember a one owner HK kingswood ute with 307 sag & long stick, bench seat & rubber floor mat with just rubber boot on floor.
The factory Saginaw mechanism sits too far back to fit with a bench seat & only came with the short lever, there is no room above the gearbox, as there is with an Opel. I do not believe this set-up to be factory, it is more than likely an aftermarket shifter. Dr Terry |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
quote:
Originally posted by HK1837
. Only thing they wouldn't have been able to order that was part of HQ Sandman was the console.
I don't think i've ever heard of a genuine 308 HT-HG though although i'm sure some were made, I do have documentation stating for HG that 308 M21 was basically not available outside of GTS for much of HG.
Wasn't the console available for any M21 or M40 floor shift as long as it had bucket seats ?
I've seen several genuine HG 308 utes & panel vans with factory Salisbury rear axles, in both M21 & M40 T-Bar.
Dr Terry
I'm not certain about HK-HG. I did buy a 253 M21 HG Kingswood sedan a few years back. It had no console, can't remember if it was bench or buckets. I've got the ID plates somewhere, will check. I also have the front floor and i'll see if it had console holes. HQ-HJ you couldn't get a T-bar in a commercial ouside Sandman, only column 3spd, column auto or stick shift. No console shift. My point about the Salisbury was for one of the HT-HG vans Davo was talking about which was a 253 with 10 bolt which wasn't a factory option, meaning it was an expensive dealer fitment. I've seen 308 10 bolt utes and vans too, but not many. |
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quote:
Originally posted by dirty davo
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
I well remember a Lina-Mint HG panel van on show at the 1970 Sydney Motor Show with a 308 V8, 4-sp, centre console, bucket seats, carpets, GTS instruments & bonnet. Stretching the memory I know, but I think it also had the same Hustler mags as the Be-Ute.
The interest in this van at the show would have been the impetus for Suttons to build the vans mentioned.
Given the show van, I can't understand how it took GM-H so long to catch on to the van craze. I worked at a taxi base in the 1971 when the HQ was released. By the end of that year there were 4 guys who worked there, diving fully optioned 308 HQ panel vans. These were basically Sandmans without the decals.
Dr Terry
Thanks for that Terry, very interesting stuff. Would love to see pics of that one!
What month was that in 1970??
As lina mint, verdoro green met (2nd type)& yellow dolly, were'nt introduced till 1971 that makes for one interesting beast!!
Which reminds me of an original Lakeside Green HT GTS Monaro at Bendigo Holden Day in aug 2009. I have some pics on file somewhere,& will post up on my FB page later
regards dave
www.bellarineclassicautos.com.au
FB david smith
Greetings, The Sydney Motor Show is always in October, so in 1970 it was in October and that is why Dolly Yellow was an available colour and not a special and also why the XU1s were on show. |
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quote:
Originally posted by 70htprem
Was the long shifter assemblies available for the saginaws? I was under the impression the long shifter was only for the Opel 4 speed but could also be had with a short shifter. Does anyone here have any evidence to support that any long shift Saginaw cars were built? (long shifter= no console)
Greetings, The long shift lever Saginaw was used in the commercial vehicles without a console. Many would have been built as this was the four speed transmission used in any commercial vehicle in HK HT and HG. The transmission is referred to as the M22 in the Features books. |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
No, there were no long lever Saginaws in Holdens.
The long lever Opels used linkages which basically carried over from the HR series. To my knowledge, the only difference between the two were that the HR had a lever made of round rod & the HK/T/G lever was made of flat bar. Both long lever types could be had with a front bench seat. They sat further forward than the short lever versions.
I believe all short lever Opels & all M21/M22 boxes had the centre console as a mandatory fitment, is this correct ??
Dr Terry
Greetings, Almost correct. The M21 and M22 were mandatory with a console shift in all except the Brougham and the commercials. When the M22 was used in a commercial it had a boot on the floor to seal the lever and was only available with bucket seats. |
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I have seen of few HK/T/G with normal Saginaw shifters without a console & a sewn vinyl boot, but I believed these to be homemade jobs. Hence my question re: the mandatory console. Obviously the console would not be mandatory in a Brougham as the M321 was simply not available.
There is only one lever type listed for the Saginaw, it should be the same whether it has a console or not, so it's not necessarily a longer lever is it. It just looks longer because of the absence of the console. The Opel long lever is both substantially longer & further forward than the console style Opel.
Why would the M22 Saginaw be standard without console, but not the M21, in a commercial, they were identical in every way except the ratios.
Dr Terry
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I think we are confusing commercial and Belmont.
In a Kingswood ute console would be mandatory with florr shift, either auto or 4 speed. On Belmont ute, van, sedan or wagon, floor shift not available with auto, no console on 4 speed, except HQ SS and Sandman. Opel not availabel on commercial.
There were also lots of "sandman spec" cars built after sandman, brother had a 253 4 speed GTS dash HZ van that he purchased from the original owner, he did not want a sandman as the insurance was so high, so speced up a van to suit.
When we researched the Monaro story/facts, I was in Mt Isa and we gathered all tag info off all the cars we could find. Nearly every HQ to HZ van in the wreckers in Mt Isa was a factory 308, not all were sandman.
Hope this helps.
Warren
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Not quite Warren, console M11 was only available on HJ commercials with XX7/XU3, even Kingswood. As far as I know HQ is the same. Non-Sandman HQ and HJ with XS6 (buckets) only got D55 (seat separator). This tells me you couldn't get a T-bar outside Sandman. I was putting 2 and 2 together for HK-HG and possibly getting 5 (always a mistake I know)! HX-WB is a different story from the info I have, you could get M11 on any ute or van or D55 only with column shift, but tonners only got a seat separator with buckets with column shift, nothing with 4spd. This makes me wonder if indeed you could even get a 4 speed HQ or HJ non-Sandman ute or van with buckets, as ordering procedure states that D55 is mandatory with XS6, whereas HZ states D55 was available with XS6 but not with 4spd. Hmmmm |
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quote:
Originally posted by git
quote:
Originally posted by 70htprem
Was the long shifter assemblies available for the saginaws? I was under the impression the long shifter was only for the Opel 4 speed but could also be had with a short shifter. Does anyone here have any evidence to support that any long shift Saginaw cars were built? (long shifter= no console)
Greetings, The long shift lever Saginaw was used in the commercial vehicles without a console. Many would have been built as this was the four speed transmission used in any commercial vehicle in HK HT and HG. The transmission is referred to as the M22 in the Features books.
I'm pretty sure the M22 was available in HK only on 6cyl commercials, V8 still got the M21. Possibly in HT the M22 was behind 253 and 308 in commercials. Not sure if M22 existed in HG, however HG ordering procedure tells me M21 and M11 not available on Belmont or 6cyl commercials and no mention of M22. |
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Howdy, I'm pretty sure the M22 in the commercials was the "stump puller" Saginaw with the first gear ratio low enough to enable a start on a steep hill with a tonne on board without burning out the clutch. I found this out after the clutch in me EH Prem Wagon had a very smelly start off on a hill near Greensborough in Vic with a heavy load behind me on the work trailer. Found out later on that I had 1.3 tonne behind me all up and I still had the 3.08 diff in ! Solved that, just bought a HX One tonner, 308, T400 and Ford 9" LSD , that's a bit more respectable, and the EH is officially retired on the 28th of this month from active service and will be fully restored over the next 3 years, just in time for the 50 year celebrations in 2014!! Another one saved from stupidity!
BTW, what's the latest with the HK/t/g owners club thingo, I'm starting the final rush to the line with the HK 307 Kingy soon, it'd be good to have an event/date to aim for to keep it moving....
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M22 Saginaw had 2.85:1 1st. You are referring to the Aussie 4spd M22 with 3.74:1 1st, these were HQ onwards. |
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