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Originally posted by Mr Bob Dobalina

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Originally posted by D. A. Barnes

the only answer is that the numbers were done after painting as if they were painted over as suggested then they should not have rusted like they do.

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This is not conclusive proof, corrosion occurs where stress and energy levels are highest, ie around deformations such as stamping, regardless of which stage it was painted.

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Very interesting point. But it is amazing how only where the letters have broken the paint rusts. I only wish I had photos to back up what I have seen in this regard. So can you explain why the deformation in the metal around the heater core housing in a HQ firewall does not rust like the letters in the firewall number? I don't doubt what you have said but there is a real world difference between reality and theory.

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Originally posted by Mr Bob Dobalina
Well it's not a theory, it's a conclusion based on observation and experimentation over a couple of thousand years (ie since approximately the beginning of the Iron Age around 1200BC). I was just stating that it's not conclusive proof, the fact that it is stamped afterwards would also lessen the bond between paint and substrate, adding to the likelihood of corrosion.

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Hi Bob, Thank you for this. I wasn't sure if you were taking the mickey out of me. You sound like an extremely intelligent person who knows a great deal about metals and your contributions here are highly valued.

I am assured that a read of the HK Engineering manual will show how and when and where chassis numbers and VAP stamp are stamped. A close look at post HQ release HG and LC chassis numbers should also demonstrate that the chassis number on these was stamped by a device capable of carrying and stamping 8 digits. The A suffix on those cars does not align with the rest of the number in most cases. As DA says HQ-HZ Pagewood firewall numbers and also Elizabeth HQ cowl numbers are the same machine stamp.

Read my post directly above. I had the same common sense vision you did, but apparantly it was done once the shell was completed in the BAP. Remember the car as it left the BAP was firewall back only ie body assembled, painted and hard trimmed. The HK Engineering manual details all this. The front was put on in the VAP which is a separate plant. The tool that stamped the numbers was a compressed air operated device.

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Originally posted by Warren Turnbull
The chassis number stamping, according to Ben, is always stamped after painting. So the inner guards of FE to EH, chassis on HQ to WB, front member of Commodore and Gemini etc would all be the same. Stamped after final painting.

The reason being is a chassis/identification number is not allowed to be painted over.

So any Holden with a stamped chassis number can be checked to see if stamped before or after painting, not just HD to HG and LC and LJ Torana.

I shall still stand behind the second S on my car being stamped before painting, but this might not be relevent to the full chassis number. Even though GMH include it in the number according to their literature.

Warren

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Hi Warren, Adding fuel to the fire I have just been to the Father's Day Australian car event at Lakeside where there were many old Holdens and Falcons. You were spot on about the EJ and EH Holdens inner guards in that the numbers were stamped after they were painted as you could see the effect inside the individual letters. They were quite deep stamps as well and the Brisbane cars were very rough compared to Sydney. Some nice original HK monaros also had the proof that numbers stamped after paint as well as LJ Toranas.

After looking at this and talking to Ben, possibly Elizabeth was done differently to Pagewood and Acacia Ridge. This may explain why we are all seeing different things:

http://www.ebay.com.au/i...ars&hash=item415ceb8f7b

From the original, unpainted cars I have (Acacia and Pagewood) i'm certain they are stamped after painting. I don't have an Elizabeth or Dandenong in original paint to look at.

The device that stamped them was compressed air operated.

VIN tag may not have been fitted for a fair while, depending upon what State the VAP was located in.

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Originally posted by HK1837
The device that stamped them was compressed air operated.

VIN tag may not have been fitted for a fair while, depending upon what State the VAP was located in.

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I'm think 100% accuracy required here, especially if you believe the vehicle was painted and half assembled when stamping it. There would of been no room for error.

Yet if it was stamped into the firewall panel in the Press or Body Shop (with some force mind you and would of had to have had something behind it) and a mistake was made, a lot easier to discard the panel and replace before the car is even partially assembled.

I have been trying to find some conclusive evidence on this.

I have looked at a couple of HB Toranas and they are definitely stamped afterwards. My reasoning is as follows. The numbers are rusted and the paint is flaking away around the number, this is on cars that have not been left out in the rain and still have their bonnets on. No other rust is in the engine bay, except where paint has been scratched off.

I have never seen the same thing on an HK to HG, or LC/LJ. But have on three HBs, one Brisbane/Brisbane, one Brisbane/Sydney and one Adelaide/Melbourne.

As I have already stated the second S on Sydney caars is stamped before painting, as they are often illegible due to paint covering it.

The rest of the number is the question mark. As Ben has said, not allowed to painted over, but difficult to stamp into firewall after assembly.

To solve the riddle I have been looking for a magazine that came out many years ago and it had a photo of an HK entering the paint shop, with writting all over the firewall. I have asked a few people to look for it.

The good news is I found it today.

It was a Street Machine "Hot Holdens" mag from around 1988. (Yellow HK on cover with, bonnet only with carbies through bonnet with polished allow catcher on top) It has the A9X Vs HT 350 test, and 20 years of Monaro special. On Page 16 you will find the photo.

I can tell you that the Monaro is an HK from Melbourne, as you can see and read the chassis number stamped into the firewall. There is NO paint on the firewall.

So the answer is HKs were stamped BEFORE painting.

Warren

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Originally posted by HK1837
I agree, I raised this the other day discussing it, what happened if there was a stuff up? We know what happened with HQ-WB rails if a number was repeated, but HK-HG?

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What happened with HQ-WB rails Byron?