Welcome Guest! To enable all features please Login or Register.

Notification

Icon
Error

Login


Take the time to read our Privacy Policy.
3 Pages<123>
Can anyone here identify aftermarket? hz aircon
Options Go to last post Go to first unread
Previous Topic Next Topic
Dr Terry Offline
#21 Posted : Thursday, 12 February 2015 7:51:34 PM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 6,064

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 184 post(s)
OK, let's sort myth from reality.

ALL of the compressors you are describing are piston compressors, they just differ in piston number & arrangement. Most of the so-called rotary style compressors are actually axial 'swash-plate' piston compressors The pistons are arranged in parallel to the one axis, but are driven by a swash plate, instead of a conventional crankshaft. The first true 'rotary' type a/cond compressor was the Sanden TR90 seen on VK/VL. The boxy 'York' compressor seen on Ford factory a/cond from XW to XE was a 2 cylinder comp with an old fashioned crankshaft. These were only seen on Holdens with aftermarket a/cond. The Yorks vibrated badly & were also noisy depending on the temperature of the day & belt tension.

The big black cylindrical steel compressor is the GM A6. They have 6 cylinders & displace either 10 or 12 cubic inches depending on the model series. The Sanden SD508 was the smaller 'alloy' cased unit which had 5 pistons but only displaced 8 cubic inches. Both these compressors are of similar design & % efficiency, but obviously the Sanden is smaller.

The GM A6 compressor (branded alternatively Harrison or Frigidaire, both GM divisions) was first seen on HK/HT/HG (underdash) factory systems, then HQ/HJ/HX/HZ/WB (intergrated) systems & LH/LX/UC Toranas. It was also fitted to the genuine 'Harrison' factory a/cond systems in VB & VC Commodore.

This is where the waters get muddied. From the late-70s Holden began using Air International systems as their accessory or add-on a/cond units & the eventually replaced the Frigidaire style systems by mid-VC Commodore as the factory system. In other words both factory fit & dealer fit systems (81 on Commodores) were essentially the same. All of these systems (pre-VK) used the SD508 'alloy' compressor.

The reason that the GM A6 gets 'bad press' as regards power consumption is because of its displacement. 12 cubic inches simply takes more power to drive than the smaller 8 cubic inch Sanden alloy unit, especially at idle speed where the engine output is probably only 10-15 hp anyway. Yes, it takes more power but it also puts out more cooling capacity. You don't get anything for free. Smaller compressor sucks less power but has a lower cooling capacity, larger comp sucks more but cools better.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Back to top
wbute Offline
#22 Posted : Friday, 13 February 2015 3:43:17 AM(UTC)
wbute

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 25/01/2010(UTC)
Posts: 1,125

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 18 time(s) in 17 post(s)
They used the Sanden on late WB's too on factory integrated I believe.
I have used a mixture on my WB. I got a new mounting kit for the Sanden which put the compressor on top of the engine. Then hooked it up to the factory integrated air. I don't think it has enough capacity really though for the factory system.
Those big Delco compressors were used on heaps of other machines and trucks etc. You could get re manufactured ones from John Deere. Not sure if you still can.
Personally I think the biggest issue with the Delco one is the size of it. Makes changing plugs a pain. Plus they are heavy.
Back to top
Dr Terry Offline
#23 Posted : Friday, 13 February 2015 5:36:38 AM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 6,064

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 184 post(s)
All the WB Commercials with integrated GM a/cond & a Sanden compressor, were dealer fitted.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Back to top
castellan Offline
#24 Posted : Friday, 13 February 2015 6:23:09 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,647

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
OK, let's sort myth from reality.

ALL of the compressors you are describing are piston compressors, they just differ in piston number & arrangement. Most of the so-called rotary style compressors are actually axial 'swash-plate' piston compressors The pistons are arranged in parallel to the one axis, but are driven by a swash plate, instead of a conventional crankshaft. The first true 'rotary' type a/cond compressor was the Sanden TR90 seen on VK/VL. The boxy 'York' compressor seen on Ford factory a/cond from XW to XE was a 2 cylinder comp with an old fashioned crankshaft. These were only seen on Holdens with aftermarket a/cond. The Yorks vibrated badly & were also noisy depending on the temperature of the day & belt tension.

The big black cylindrical steel compressor is the GM A6. They have 6 cylinders & displace either 10 or 12 cubic inches depending on the model series. The Sanden SD508 was the smaller 'alloy' cased unit which had 5 pistons but only displaced 8 cubic inches. Both these compressors are of similar design & % efficiency, but obviously the Sanden is smaller.

The GM A6 compressor (branded alternatively Harrison or Frigidaire, both GM divisions) was first seen on HK/HT/HG (underdash) factory systems, then HQ/HJ/HX/HZ/WB (intergrated) systems & LH/LX/UC Toranas. It was also fitted to the genuine 'Harrison' factory a/cond systems in VB & VC Commodore.

This is where the waters get muddied. From the late-70s Holden began using Air International systems as their accessory or add-on a/cond units & the eventually replaced the Frigidaire style systems by mid-VC Commodore as the factory system. In other words both factory fit & dealer fit systems (81 on Commodores) were essentially the same. All of these systems (pre-VK) used the SD508 'alloy' compressor.

The reason that the GM A6 gets 'bad press' as regards power consumption is because of its displacement. 12 cubic inches simply takes more power to drive than the smaller 8 cubic inch Sanden alloy unit, especially at idle speed where the engine output is probably only 10-15 hp anyway. Yes, it takes more power but it also puts out more cooling capacity. You don't get anything for free. Smaller compressor sucks less power but has a lower cooling capacity, larger comp sucks more but cools better.

Dr Terry
I have never seen a compressor on a Holden before HG that was round like the A6 but only the old 1969 to 1983 York ford type looking thing as I think the A6 came in the HJ on.
Some dude was showing me his HG Brougham and said the air con compressor was original it was a alloy sanden I sad no way it was.

MY HG 253 was a Frigidaire I think and it came with the finer air con radiator, so what would be the compressor if it was genuine Holden one. it looked like a York the same as my dads 1971 Galaxie only his was painted black and the HG was silver.
Or were all pre HQ dealer fitted.

I despise them under dash aircon units as just rubbish that you can't hit the windscreen up directly if need be to see out of and they take up room and look crapy.

XW falcon was the first real integrated air con in a Aussie car I think then the HQ Holden but the Valiant never got it.

I am not sure about the Aussie made Ford Galaxie had integrated may of been from 1967 as early Galaxies had different dash to the USA Galaxie.
I don't know if the last of the big tank Chrysler's up to 1972 had it.
Back to top
Dr Terry Offline
#25 Posted : Friday, 13 February 2015 6:14:26 PM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 6,064

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 184 post(s)
quote:
Originally posted by castellan
I have never seen a compressor on a Holden before HG that was round like the A6 but only the old 1969 to 1983 York ford type looking thing as I think the A6 came in the HJ on.
Some dude was showing me his HG Brougham and said the air con compressor was original it was a alloy sanden I sad no way it was.

MY HG 253 was a Frigidaire I think and it came with the finer air con radiator, so what would be the compressor if it was genuine Holden one. it looked like a York the same as my dads 1971 Galaxie only his was painted black and the HG was silver.
Or were all pre HQ dealer fitted.

As I said, all HK-WB used the GM A6 as the compressor for the factory fitted system, however while HQ onwards units were integrated. HK/T/G evaporators were underdash.

Yorks were only fitted to aftermarket systems in Holdens. Yorks were generally silver (alloy) for aftermarket, but painted black for genuine Ford.

It is possible to have a dealer-fitted/aftermarket unit with a Sanden SD508 compressor on an HG. (BTW in those days they were branded Sankyo). AFAIK they were introduced to the Aust. market around 1969-1970.
quote:
Originally posted by castellan
I despise them under dash aircon units as just rubbish that you can't hit the windscreen up directly if need be to see out of and they take up room and look crapy.

XW falcon was the first real integrated air con in a Aussie car I think then the HQ Holden but the Valiant never got it.

I'm a bit the same, in preferring the integrated system over the underdash, but the underdash was a much cheaper & easier fit in many cars, especially when no integrated was available. They also out-performed most integrated systems.

The VF Valiant (March 69) just beat the XW Falcon (June 69) to the market with Australia's first integrated a/cond system. Many people thought that the Valiant factory a/cond wasn't integrated because the dash vents were along the lower edge of the dash, but it was fully integrated with the heater/demister system & their controls. BTW, it was a very good system, far better than the Ford or Holden of the day.

The XW factory a/cond also had its air exit beneath the dash, but it didn't even get a proper vent outlet, except for the 2 ones at the LH & RH kick panels.. This was remedied for XY with a small dash vent between the glovebox & the radio.
quote:
Originally posted by castellan
I am not sure about the Aussie made Ford Galaxie had integrated may of been from 1967 as early Galaxies had different dash to the USA Galaxie.
I don't know if the last of the big tank Chrysler's up to 1972 had it.

AFIAK none of the Aust. assembled Yankee Fords or Chryslers (both finished in 1972) had integrated a/cond. It would've been too costly to design, tool up & manufacture a RHD a/cond unit for such a small run of cars.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Back to top
castellan Offline
#26 Posted : Friday, 13 February 2015 10:06:59 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,647

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
My dads Aussie 1971 LTD Galaxie sure was integrated air con that's for sure ! and I think the 1969, 1970 were as well.

That's a surprise to me a 1969 Valiant with integrated air, I have only seen the big under dash rubbish even up to the last CM.
Back to top
Dr Terry Offline
#27 Posted : Friday, 13 February 2015 10:34:37 PM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 6,064

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 184 post(s)
quote:
Originally posted by castellan
My dads Aussie 1971 LTD Galaxie sure was integrated air con that's for sure ! and I think the 1969, 1970 were as well.

That one surprises me. From 1971 to 1974, I worked for a large taxi/hire-car company which used lots of black LTDs & Dodge Phoenixes as hire car/limos. We got the LTDs delivered directly from the Ford Homebush assembly plant & they had the Ford branded underdash units already in them.
quote:
Originally posted by castellan

That's a surprise to me a 1969 Valiant with integrated air, I have only seen the big under dash rubbish even up to the last CM.

That's why I mentioned that most people thought that the Valiant a/cond was just an add-on underdash unit when in fact it was fully integrated. It appeared to be an underdash set-up because the air vent out ran along the lower edge of the dash, instead of having face level vents like many late model cars. But it was fully integrated with the heater/demister system & the in-dash controls. All Valiant factory a/cond from VF to CM was like this & they were arguably the best factory systems of that era.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Back to top
castellan Offline
#28 Posted : Saturday, 14 February 2015 4:20:27 AM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,647

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
quote:
Originally posted by castellan
My dads Aussie 1971 LTD Galaxie sure was integrated air con that's for sure ! and I think the 1969, 1970 were as well.

That one surprises me. From 1971 to 1974, I worked for a large taxi/hire-car company which used lots of black LTDs & Dodge Phoenixes as hire car/limos. We got the LTDs delivered directly from the Ford Homebush assembly plant & they had the Ford branded underdash units already in them.
quote:
Originally posted by castellan

That's a surprise to me a 1969 Valiant with integrated air, I have only seen the big under dash rubbish even up to the last CM.

That's why I mentioned that most people thought that the Valiant a/cond was just an add-on underdash unit when in fact it was fully integrated. It appeared to be an underdash set-up because the air vent out ran along the lower edge of the dash, instead of having face level vents like many late model cars. But it was fully integrated with the heater/demister system & the in-dash controls. All Valiant factory a/cond from VF to CM was like this & they were arguably the best factory systems of that era.

Dr Terry
Never the Aussie 1971-2 LTD Galaxie they were just like todays cars that go straight up to the windscreen and out all the vents and that's what I call integrated. the whole air box under the hood is in front of the driver and the brake booster is on the passenger side.

The Valiant lot only were just total rubbish under the dash old type crap with the controls on the dash, backward junk.
Just think if a new car only came with that old type of rubbish.
Back to top
HK1837 Offline
#29 Posted : Saturday, 14 February 2015 5:44:56 AM(UTC)
HK1837

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered, Veteran
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 14,728

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 513 time(s) in 489 post(s)
Don't forget though that the norm in those days was 4 wheel drum brakes, crossply tyres and no forced air at all. Any sort of aircon was a luxury.
_______________________________________________________
If we all had the same (good) taste, who would buy all the Fords?
Back to top
starks Offline
#30 Posted : Saturday, 14 February 2015 8:31:50 AM(UTC)
starks

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 59
Agreed. That 'old type of rubbish' wasnt so much rubbish back then.
Back to top
castellan Offline
#31 Posted : Saturday, 14 February 2015 10:39:33 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,647

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
quote:
Originally posted by starks
Agreed. That 'old type of rubbish' wasnt so much rubbish back then.
For a valiant up to The CM it was a poor show to only have the old under dash still in 1982, when a HQ had it in 1971 and Falcons in 1969.

The best thing about integrated air con is you can see through the windscreen at times in a second at just a touch, as a safety thing.

Sure the old under dash did a job.

When driving a 1971 HQ and some dude points out that his new CM Valiant has air con, you would have to say, now listen mate ! come and have a look see at my old HQ bro and I will point out the superiority of what a Holden has to offer.
Back to top
Dr Terry Offline
#32 Posted : Sunday, 15 February 2015 7:15:05 AM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 6,064

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 184 post(s)
I beg to differ. If you take look behind the dash of a Valiant with factory a/cond you will see that it has the same style ducting setup & vacuum flaps as HQ-WB & Ford XA onwards.

The evaporator & heater core both sit inside the same enclosure (up behind the dash facia), to provide a hot/cold/warm air mix & that air can be directed to the floor or screen if required. It shares the same fan motor & ducting. It also can also source fresh or recirculated air as required.

Many confuse this set-up because the face level vent outlets are arranged along the lower edge of the dash. Old fashioned underdash units have the evaporator & fan etc. all combined into one unit that cannot source fresh air.

Another example of this type of set-up is the LH-UC Torana factory a/cond, it is fully integrated, but the centre outlets are below the dash in the same style as a non-a/cond car.

The term integrated means that the air/cond evaporator is combined with the rest of the heater/demister/ventilation system. It doesn't just mean that the vents are in-dash.

On that topic, we used to fit a system to HJ-WB Holden which they wrongly branded 'integrated'. It was basically an underdash evap box tilted at 45-degrees up behind the dash with 4 flexible ducts running to the face level vents, totally independent of the heater/demister. Yes, this system was integrated with the dash, but it was not integrated with the HVAC system like a Valiant or HQ-WB system was.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Back to top
castellan Offline
#33 Posted : Sunday, 15 February 2015 7:38:54 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,647

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
Are I see now, very good.
Thanks.
Back to top
Dr Terry Offline
#34 Posted : Sunday, 15 February 2015 7:50:29 PM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 6,064

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 184 post(s)
quote:
Originally posted by castellan
Never the Aussie 1971-2 LTD Galaxie they were just like todays cars that go straight up to the windscreen and out all the vents and that's what I call integrated. the whole air box under the hood is in front of the driver and the brake booster is on the passenger side.


I stand corrected castellan !! The 1971/72 Australian assembled Galaxie LTDs did have fully integrated a/con.

As soon I re-read your post regarding the booster on the passenger side it twigged something in the old grey matter, so I checked my workshop manuals & there it was.

For those 2 year models Ford modified the air box to allow the steering column to go underneath it & built transfer levers for the brakes for the RHD conversion.

The ones we had at work were 1969/70 models which had the genuine Ford badged underdash units fitted. The Australian release of Yankee cars was always about 6 months or so behind the US, we were still getting new deliveries of 1970 models well into 1971.

By mid 1971 & into 1972, we were using Dodge Phoenixes & then the new ZF Fairlane, which was a much more suitable car (read cheaper & more practical) for hire car use than the converted Yankee stuff.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Back to top
starks Offline
#35 Posted : Monday, 16 February 2015 3:53:22 AM(UTC)
starks

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 59
So Im out in the shed playing. With this compressor mounting kit thought Id have another look at it since its there but nope, fowls on the tall rocker covers, the fan shroud and the clutch fan by the looks of it. Reading the instructions the original kit had a new engine fan but anyways. Regardless its too much mucking around to fit the compressor with these brackets. I now have a holden v8 aircon bracket that mounts the compressor on the lh side of the engine. Problem is I dont have compressor brackets for the engine bracket. Im thinking if I can get the harrison compressor brackets theyre going to be easier to modify then starting from scratch. I dont suppose anyone has these brackets they want to sell? Id say I will end up putting these current brackets up for sale so atleast someone will be able to use them for fitting aftermarket aircon to their 253/308.
Back to top
castellan Offline
#36 Posted : Monday, 16 February 2015 8:02:13 PM(UTC)
castellan

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 26/02/2009(UTC)
Posts: 1,647

Thanks: 16 times
Was thanked: 27 time(s) in 25 post(s)
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Terry
quote:
Originally posted by castellan
Never the Aussie 1971-2 LTD Galaxie they were just like todays cars that go straight up to the windscreen and out all the vents and that's what I call integrated. the whole air box under the hood is in front of the driver and the brake booster is on the passenger side.


I stand corrected castellan !! The 1971/72 Australian assembled Galaxie LTDs did have fully integrated a/con.

As soon I re-read your post regarding the booster on the passenger side it twigged something in the old grey matter, so I checked my workshop manuals & there it was.

For those 2 year models Ford modified the air box to allow the steering column to go underneath it & built transfer levers for the brakes for the RHD conversion.

The ones we had at work were 1969/70 models which had the genuine Ford badged underdash units fitted. The Australian release of Yankee cars was always about 6 months or so behind the US, we were still getting new deliveries of 1970 models well into 1971.

By mid 1971 & into 1972, we were using Dodge Phoenixes & then the new ZF Fairlane, which was a much more suitable car (read cheaper & more practical) for hire car use than the converted Yankee stuff.

Dr Terry
Yes the 1971 LTD came on sale about June 71 my dads was a Feb 1972 then the gutless low compression we call the 1972 model was from June 1972 and were converted to RHD up to about May 1973.
Back to top
maccaz69 Offline
#37 Posted : Thursday, 27 August 2015 10:33:57 PM(UTC)
maccaz69

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 1/09/2006(UTC)
Posts: 45
Hi mate how did you go modifying the harrison brackets? Are the original sanden comp brackets still for sale? I'm trying to work out how I will instal a sanden on a 308 in a HT which has VN heads....may run into the same probs fitting the compressor as you with these brackets though...? Anyone have any harrison brackets for sale too? Cheers. Andy.
Back to top
starks Offline
#38 Posted : Tuesday, 6 October 2015 1:17:10 PM(UTC)
starks

Rank: Member

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 10/02/2015(UTC)
Posts: 59
Maccaz69. Been so busy lately havent been on any forums sorry mate. I ended up modifying harrison brackets to mount the sanden where the harrison compressor sits. I have another set of harrison brackets here to minus the back piece to the engine which you wont need anyway. In any case after some engine problems looks like I may be throwing in a 350 crate motor anyway so the brackets may be useless to me. Are you still chasing some?
Back to top
thebennyg Offline
#39 Posted : Tuesday, 23 February 2021 8:06:46 PM(UTC)
thebennyg

Rank: Newbie

Reputation:

Groups: Registered
Joined: 23/02/2021(UTC)
Posts: 5
Man
Australia
Location: Victoria

Thanks: 1 times
Hi Guys! I know it's been 5+ years but I am in the exact same boat as Starks. I was wondering if someone had a copy of that manual of they could please send it to me: [email protected].

I've just got my 78 Kingswood wagon and the road and pulled out one of these units from a HZ sedan parts car I got. I'm a fridge by trade so I am keen to give it a crack would just love to have a manual a long the way! Thanks!
Back to top
Dr Terry Offline
#40 Posted : Wednesday, 24 February 2021 11:03:19 AM(UTC)
Dr Terry

Rank: Veteran

Reputation:

Groups: Moderator, Registered
Joined: 1/03/2005(UTC)
Posts: 6,064

Thanks: 1 times
Was thanked: 203 time(s) in 184 post(s)
Originally Posted by: thebennyg Go to Quoted Post
Hi Guys! I know it's been 5+ years but I am in the exact same boat as Starks. I was wondering if someone had a copy of that manual of they could please send it to me: [email protected].

I've just got my 78 Kingswood wagon and the road and pulled out one of these units from a HZ sedan parts car I got. I'm a fridge by trade so I am keen to give it a crack would just love to have a manual a long the way! Thanks!


Which system are you referring to ? The factory system with the Frigidaire compressor or the dealer-fitted unit.

Dr Terry
If at first you don't succeed, just call it Version 1.0
Back to top
Users browsing this topic
Guest (2)
3 Pages<123>
Forum Jump  
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by YAF | YAF © 2003-2024, Yet Another Forum.NET
This page was generated in 0.181 seconds.