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HK1837 Offline
#21 Posted : Sunday, 22 September 2024 1:47:11 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

So if one pulls off the wires to temp or gear box, how does the dizzy know to retard ?


The temp sensor & the gearbox switch control the vacuum solenoid. Unless the engine is up to temp & in top gear, the dissy receives no vacuum to the vac diaphragm.

Dr Terry


This is what i thought but in regards to why the HX 5.0L 4sp were so gutless, even with dual exhaust, i know the manuals did not have EGR entering the intake to be burnt like the Automatics did.

So me was thinking, now if your foot is flat to the floor, the vacuum advance has no regards to power at all when flat to the boards, but the Dizzy should work just as a HJ one would ? with the springs and weights ! So that can not be the issue ! unless them springs and weights are the issue ?

Then i was thinking of the Blue motor dizzy has that big box on them ? now why is that so and can that bugger up or interfear with timing in anyway ! plus their is a electrical box with fins on it i think they bugger up and most mecanics gave no regard for them. I have heard of CL Valiants had problems with such things when they got old, for such just were hammered with heat that destroyed them from working.
I had a Dyno Tune dude do my car and he did not even detect that the vacuum adv was not working in fact ! i though how stupid can he be. they have no regard for that ? Applause that's the main thing to make sure is working.

I had a mate with a WB Statesman in 1988 and it just would not perform, it was like the advance in the dizzy did not work, that's what i said to him that i think it's like and to get it cheked out, he did and said they claimed it was fine.

I know that the vacuum advance is only a fuel economy device truly.


Vacuum advance is mainly for cruising. It generally won't affect engine developing power when its needed.

The HX 5.0L isn't so much gutless but breathless. The bottom end is identical to HJ, as in the smaller dish pistons for 9.7:1, same cam etc. The heads are the same other than the exhaust crossover ports. It's the intake manifold. I think you have a copy of the same Street Machine flow bench article where they compare the HT-HJ manifold against the HX and also a Performer. They show the HX intake is a dog, it shows flow bolted to standard heads and the pollution intake is a huge restriction. The way to fix a HX engine is to put on an Edelbrock Performer intake. Then it'll perform at least as good as a HJ engine.

Edited by user Sunday, 22 September 2024 1:47:42 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

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castellan Offline
#22 Posted : Sunday, 22 September 2024 5:13:29 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: Dr Terry Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post

So if one pulls off the wires to temp or gear box, how does the dizzy know to retard ?


The temp sensor & the gearbox switch control the vacuum solenoid. Unless the engine is up to temp & in top gear, the dissy receives no vacuum to the vac diaphragm.

Dr Terry


This is what i thought but in regards to why the HX 5.0L 4sp were so gutless, even with dual exhaust, i know the manuals did not have EGR entering the intake to be burnt like the Automatics did.

So me was thinking, now if your foot is flat to the floor, the vacuum advance has no regards to power at all when flat to the boards, but the Dizzy should work just as a HJ one would ? with the springs and weights ! So that can not be the issue ! unless them springs and weights are the issue ?

Then i was thinking of the Blue motor dizzy has that big box on them ? now why is that so and can that bugger up or interfear with timing in anyway ! plus their is a electrical box with fins on it i think they bugger up and most mecanics gave no regard for them. I have heard of CL Valiants had problems with such things when they got old, for such just were hammered with heat that destroyed them from working.
I had a Dyno Tune dude do my car and he did not even detect that the vacuum adv was not working in fact ! i though how stupid can he be. they have no regard for that ? Applause that's the main thing to make sure is working.

I had a mate with a WB Statesman in 1988 and it just would not perform, it was like the advance in the dizzy did not work, that's what i said to him that i think it's like and to get it cheked out, he did and said they claimed it was fine.

I know that the vacuum advance is only a fuel economy device truly.


Vacuum advance is mainly for cruising. It generally won't affect engine developing power when its needed.

The HX 5.0L isn't so much gutless but breathless. The bottom end is identical to HJ, as in the smaller dish pistons for 9.7:1, same cam etc. The heads are the same other than the exhaust crossover ports. It's the intake manifold. I think you have a copy of the same Street Machine flow bench article where they compare the HT-HJ manifold against the HX and also a Performer. They show the HX intake is a dog, it shows flow bolted to standard heads and the pollution intake is a huge restriction. The way to fix a HX engine is to put on an Edelbrock Performer intake. Then it'll perform at least as good as a HJ engine.

Intake manifolds make no diffrence to losses in torque or HP below a set CFM ! in fact the less the better in fact until a set CFM in fact. it's only when the intake become restricted that such becomes an issue in fact !

Going to big an intake is total rubbish in fact ! same with too big a CFM Carby is just BS !

How come my HX intake on my 5.0L could feed it fine at 5300RPM at 213KM/H with a Waggot 20/60 Cam and stage 3 heads.

Not to mention before that with a stock Cam, that i could blow away my mate who had the same car same diff ratio same M21 4sp and a TQ20 Cam and same carby but he had a Perfomer intake on his. 3rd gear runs side by side say and just walk past him easy. Oh mine was jetted rich tho.

I was set on going to put the Performer intake on mine but i got it welded up at the water jacket face's as they were corroded badly, all good so i left the stock intake on. the dude that welded it said it may warp and be buggered ? so the Perfomer was number one on the list, but she worked out just fine and sat on it for another 15 years.

A mate put on a Torquer intake that was total crap for a street car. he has a 30/70 Cam in it and should of gone for the Perfomer intake, but i diots convinced him the bigger the better load of BS !

Another thing i wonder about the EGR Heads and the exhauset going under the intake may be too much heat and that dropes power ? I think water heated is better, but had no problems with my HX intake not having intake heating at all as it had Pre EGR Heads. ran rich and did not need a choke in QLD.

I have to question that issue of Street Machine, not in the flow figures but in reality on the road reality ? I am not against the Perfomer intake at all. and i would be the firest to think also that a HX intake is total crap, i would of believed such for sure ! but i know the reality for a fact.

I remember test driving driving a Ex yellow QLD HWY Patrol car VK 5.0L auto dual exhause what a slug ! and a VB SL/E 5.0L with dual exhaust what a slug ! a HZ 4 sp GTS that a mate had dual exhause what a slug ! A mate with a WB Caprice what a slug but it handeled well.
That stock original HG GTS 308 auto with just dual exhaust i test drove would just totaly kill all of them cars, totaly eat them ! I loved driving that car ! i had to have it ! but a dude bought it when i was test driving it !
HK1837 Offline
#23 Posted : Sunday, 22 September 2024 6:42:45 PM(UTC)
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You asked. I told you the reason. It is simple fact! The intake is the only major change between a HJ and a HX 5.0L engine, although there is that additional thermal flap in one side exhaust to force hot exhaust across the intake to operate the choke. That intake manifold change is the reason the HJ 5.0L produced a proper SAE 250hp @5000rpm whereas the HX peaked at 216hp @4800rpm. Torque tells the same story, 320lbft @3400rpm vs 295 @3100rpm. That 34hp and 25lbft difference is actually greater than the difference between the 1969-70 L48 in the HT-HG GTS350M and the L48 in HQ. That difference is:

300hp@4800 vs 275@4800.
380lbft@4800 vs 360lbft@3200.

The difference in the 350's is compression via 75cc heads and piston dish vs 64cc and flat tops, the rest is the same. Same cam, valves, springs, intake design, carby etc, even the distributor is the same.

It is true that flow is more important at full throttle, but just ask anyone who drove an early LX SLR5000 and then a 7/76 onwards one, those are a better comparison as they had the same exhaust. HJ were single and HX twin on GTS.
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castellan Offline
#24 Posted : Monday, 23 September 2024 3:16:45 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
You asked. I told you the reason. It is simple fact! The intake is the only major change between a HJ and a HX 5.0L engine, although there is that additional thermal flap in one side exhaust to force hot exhaust across the intake to operate the choke. That intake manifold change is the reason the HJ 5.0L produced a proper SAE 250hp @5000rpm whereas the HX peaked at 216hp @4800rpm. Torque tells the same story, 320lbft @3400rpm vs 295 @3100rpm. That 34hp and 25lbft difference is actually greater than the difference between the 1969-70 L48 in the HT-HG GTS350M and the L48 in HQ. That difference is:

300hp@4800 vs 275@4800.
380lbft@4800 vs 360lbft@3200.

The difference in the 350's is compression via 75cc heads and piston dish vs 64cc and flat tops, the rest is the same. Same cam, valves, springs, intake design, carby etc, even the distributor is the same.

It is true that flow is more important at full throttle, but just ask anyone who drove an early LX SLR5000 and then a 7/76 onwards one, those are a better comparison as they had the same exhaust. HJ were single and HX twin on GTS.


Well the HT-G GTS 350 4sp -VS- HT-G GTS 350 auto is compression. but sadly it's not rated in DIN ! to get a true picture.

The HQ GTS 350 is just low compression, but the 1973-4 is the ribs in the intake that are the problem loss of perfomance ? it would be good to see such in DIN.

The HJ and later LH 5.0L engine has 9.7:1 and no ribs in the intake ? and the HX 5.0L has 9.4:1 and ribs in the intake. so with dual exhaust on all it would be good to see such in DIN !

Then we have the VB 5.0L Dual exhaust with DIN figures and the Single exhaust DIN figures i suspect they are the same as the HX-Z would be ?

Then we have the Blue 5.0L and it's the same engine as red really bar spark plugs are set and Electronic ignition but same power say bar a bit more RPM and look at all of that increase in Torque just with ignition ?

I would say that flow is in regards not only full throttle, but as RPM's become higher ! Why i think that is so, is because if a intake flows X at Y lets say 3000 rpm and 4000 and 5000 ? the true raiting has to be restricted at the higher end of the rpm limit that creats the issue of lack of power because it's restricted at that flow and not to mention if the flow is too much then you will loose low down torque for sure.
So i see the issue is with restriction coming in at a set rpm limit badly effecting perfomance.

If a Intake can flow X then it can never make anymore Power, as that's the set limit.

That's why when mods to cyl heads one may go bigger Valves or then start with porting work to increase the flow, but then again fools believe that the better flowing numbers are the better ? but you can go to big and loose perfomance as well.
Like you do not want to put a L34 size exhause valve in a stock like red 253 because they loose perfomance. the stock Red v8 in and ex valves heads are near like the size of an XU-1 say.
So the 253 has good size valves to breath well.

But how do i explain that my HX Intake manifold on a stock reco 308 could blow away anything of the same ilk HQ and even a HJ with TQ20 Cam in a 3rd gear run ? you can not play games with that sort of thing as their is nothing to it !
Then when i put stage 3 heads on it and a 20/60 Waggot Cam, boy did it crack on then ! The Torque !

But then again morons claimed that if i went to a single 2 1/2 exhaust i would pick up a lot of power over my twin 2 1/4 free flowing and loud. They were totaly convinced i would get heaps more power ! like hell it did, it killed the power like huge loss of power. i believe that red 308's a touchy to exhaust, they have to flow as free as can be, so as to get the best perfomance out of them.
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#25 Posted : Monday, 23 September 2024 4:15:39 PM(UTC)
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Yes that is it, compression, 75cc chambers vs 64cc, DIN is useless so no idea why you want that. Too many variable introduced, if everything is the same the difference between them would be identical. The point is the difference in those 350 engines is less than it is between HJ and HX 5.0L, which is also not DIN (thank god).

HX is still 9.7:1. Only change is the intake. That is 100% the difference, its been a known fact for 40 years - its why people pulled them off, threw them in the bin and picked up 30hp.
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HK1837 Offline
#26 Posted : Monday, 23 September 2024 4:55:11 PM(UTC)
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Here is that article. This clearly shows you why the HX intake is a dog and restricts flow hence performance. I wish I could find the magazine with the colour images, but to make it even more obvious the test is with stock red pollution heads (see the U shaped EGR port) and you can see the logs on the head faces of the ADR27A intake, so its HX.


Edited by user Monday, 23 September 2024 4:55:43 PM(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling

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Smitty2 on 24/09/2024(UTC)
castellan Offline
#27 Posted : Tuesday, 24 September 2024 11:42:51 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Here is that article. This clearly shows you why the HX intake is a dog and restricts flow hence performance. I wish I could find the magazine with the colour images, but to make it even more obvious the test is with stock red pollution heads (see the U shaped EGR port) and you can see the logs on the head faces of the ADR27A intake, so its HX.




That proves it then ! the HX Intake could flow for up to 260HP !
The Stock ADR27A 308 with duel exhaust makes 169HP and a HQ 308 with dual exhause makes 196HP and a HT-G GTS308 with that type of dual exhaust makes 204HP as they were louder and freer flowing than the quiet dual in the HQ dual exhaust.

My stock crap average Gem reco engine mad max perfomance at 4500rpm as that was the point i would change gear in 1st 2ed and 3rd as no point in rev any more but for top gear stopping at 5000rpm due to valve bounce.

But then with the next reco i did was Stage 3 heard that's L34 Valves and a cheap porting job with a small Cam 20/60 Wagott and you could not hear any lump at idle unless for a few times that it did, one was a cold morning that i backed it up to a wall and the other was on a high hill on a cold morning that it could be picked out, that it was not stock ! but it lost nothing down low in torque but gained right from idle up for sure and now could do 5300RPM in top gear.
So what i thought was around 260HP DIN.

If i want up to the next size Cam 25/65 i knew i would need a perfomer intake at the time, but i wanted torque and a stock like engine for i did a lot of KM and for fuel economy as well, that's why i went 20/60 Cam.
Also i feel that the 25/65 Cam is a loss in torque and the HP is not much more but only a better up top revs that is worthless really for what i wanted.
As to a 30/70 Cam they are crap down low and taking off down low in normal town driving, Sound Good for sure ! but that makes you want to put the foot into it all the time and also that rush of power you get up top is great fun to keep doing pushing it to 6500RPM and a mate had that in his LH Torana with stock valve heads and stock intake manifold and 650 DP extractors and dual pipes.
I liked driving that but he could not blow my P Van away on the back roads out back up to say 180km/h. he was right on my tail and I wondered why he did not just blow mine away ! and when i was on his tail the same ! but it must be in the gearing and rpm used. His was 3.00:1 9in 14in wheels with M21 and mine 3.08 with M21. he is pulling say 6500rpm and me 4500rpm ! but if i rev mine to say 5000rpm he would of blowen me away !

I had a mate with a G PAK 202 Torana and 30/70 Cam and YT6000 head twin strombergs headers on it and dual exhaust it was in like with my 308 untill 180KM/H but then the little 202 just took off blowing me away like a rocket to 220 KM/H only it was way to fast to drive at that speed for it was a real handful to keep on the road as it shook and darted about floating about on the road that you could not keep into if for fear that you may loose it.
That mates 308 LH did the same thing over 200km/h so you had to back off !

I found on my XG ute that you had to keep the wheel berings nipped up on the front or a shimmy started to get on your goat and the car would start to bother you but nip them up and all was fine to 210km/h. not to mention some tyres do much the same thing due to being 3rd rate design in the steel belts.
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#28 Posted : Tuesday, 24 September 2024 12:22:55 PM(UTC)
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Yes, UP to 260hp in theory, but that is 260HP gross as well, maybe 175hp DIN maximum depending upon the exhaust, air cleaner, air temperature, fule quality, fan belt tension etc etc - all the crappy variables that you don't know when using DIN figures. It is badly restricting the heads, and everyone knows that the stock 308 intake valves are a performance inhibitor themselves - a decent return can be had by putting in larger intakes (aka L34 and V5H engines). The stock HT-HQ 308 intake (all the same engine bar the sump and a bit of plumbing) could make UP to 313hp. That is a huge performance inhibitor from the ADR27A intake to lose a potential 53hp. In reality it removed 34hp peak - remember there is nothing in there to disguise itself in those figures, it is a proper GM20 test with lab fuel and controlled ambient air pressure and temperature using the dyno exhaust. I bet that intake probably did as much to strangle performance as putting on a HT-HG 2BBL intake and carb would. I'm not saying the HX engine wasn't tractable, at lower rpm it probably performed well as it would have had lower air flow, but when you start looking at peak figures (be it SAE gross, net or even DIN) it will suffocate the engine. At WOT that intake would be like restricting the Quadrajet's secondaries to only open to 70%.
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#29 Posted : Tuesday, 24 September 2024 12:44:17 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Yes that is it, compression, 75cc chambers vs 64cc, DIN is useless so no idea why you want that. Too many variable introduced, if everything is the same the difference between them would be identical. The point is the difference in those 350 engines is less than it is between HJ and HX 5.0L, which is also not DIN (thank god).

HX is still 9.7:1. Only change is the intake. That is 100% the difference, its been a known fact for 40 years - its why people pulled them off, threw them in the bin and picked up 30hp.


Net Power is totaly useless as it has nothing to do with reality. you know that.

Look at the VB 5.0L is in DIN and see the same engine but look duel exhaust power figures and single exh ? so when you are the sales man, you can show the reality and prove it ! you had the option !
Because fact is that most people will not believe that a dual exhaust will perform better in fact !

I remember my dad, i said put a dual exhaust on that 400ci V8 LTD Galaxie and he turned around and said, Dual exhaust only make it louder ? I said that's total BS ! so he had the great Big huge muffler that weighed so much, that it kept brakeing what held it all up. it was like 2ft long and 1ft wide easy.
Most people have no idea !

Look at people making a claim of power for the XY GT-HO The fact was that the best one off the showroom floor made 350HP. and a XY GT 351 made say 270HP max real HP !
A XC 5.8L dual exhaust 217HP.
A XB 351 4BBL GT 215HP.
Single exhaust XC 5.8L 188HP
A XB 351 2BBL 183HP.
castellan Offline
#30 Posted : Tuesday, 24 September 2024 1:22:14 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Yes, UP to 260hp in theory, but that is 260HP gross as well, maybe 175hp DIN maximum depending upon the exhaust, air cleaner, air temperature, fule quality, fan belt tension etc etc - all the crappy variables that you don't know when using DIN figures. It is badly restricting the heads, and everyone knows that the stock 308 intake valves are a performance inhibitor themselves - a decent return can be had by putting in larger intakes (aka L34 and V5H engines). The stock HT-HQ 308 intake (all the same engine bar the sump and a bit of plumbing) could make UP to 313hp. That is a huge performance inhibitor from the ADR27A intake to lose a potential 53hp. In reality it removed 34hp peak - remember there is nothing in there to disguise itself in those figures, it is a proper GM20 test with lab fuel and controlled ambient air pressure and temperature using the dyno exhaust. I bet that intake probably did as much to strangle performance as putting on a HT-HG 2BBL intake and carb would. I'm not saying the HX engine wasn't tractable, at lower rpm it probably performed well as it would have had lower air flow, but when you start looking at peak figures (be it SAE gross, net or even DIN) it will suffocate the engine. At WOT that intake would be like restricting the Quadrajet's secondaries to only open to 70%.


I think it's Net figures in fact !
VB 5.0L dual exh is 169HP DIN
HQ 5.0L dual exh is 196HP NET.

Quadrajet do not open the secondarys all the way unless it's needed ? I think it's the air type of cleaner that affects perfomance of the Secondarys from not opperating as they should ? Nothing to do with what goes on under the carby regards intake manifold would tamper with the opening.

I think it was to do with the HK 327GTS or was it the HT 350GTS That got a better breathing air filter some time after they came out ?

I know some USA cars would not open the secondarys as it should because the air filter was to restricted. I can not remember which one, a Pontiac big block V8 i think and lost 40hp.

It's the stock intake valve that can be a bit to small on the 308 red.
The stage 3 and YT heads are just a cheap way to go about adding power to a 308.
I have seen even stock exhaust valve size red and a L34 intake make real good power figures but pro ported ! not stupid ported mined you !

Look at the Torana L31 and the L34 Power figures ?

Bigger valves and huge port job do not work well, I have seen that done, to much porting of the exhaust can kill perfomance as the red V8 has good ports ? a old 302 Windsor V8 ports are crap and so is the Cleveland V8 on the 302 they are to big a port ? The 351 Cleveland 2V head can be made to perform better than the old 4V heads. look at Bathurst and the figures XY GT-HO and then the XD makes more power and the XE even more at Bathurst with 2V heads !

Edited by user Wednesday, 25 September 2024 9:51:55 AM(UTC)  | Reason: Screwed up quote, fixed and posted text in later reply.

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#31 Posted : Tuesday, 24 September 2024 10:06:55 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
.................................

Quadrajet do not open the secondarys all the way unless it's needed ? I think it's the air type of cleaner that affects perfomance of the Secondarys from not opperating as they should ? Nothing to do with what goes on under the carby regards intake manifold would tamper with the opening.

I think it was to do with the HK 327GTS or was it the HT 350GTS That got a better breathing air filter some time after they came out ?

I know some USA cars would not open the secondarys as it should because the air filter was to restricted. I can not remember which one, a Pontiac big block V8 i think and lost 40hp.

.....................


FWIW ... the air cleaner or manifold really don't affect a GM Quaddie and its operation (except the later E4ME version in the USA which use a vacuum signal from a sensor in the air cleaner)

Quadrajet secondary throttle body shafts move with a slight delay to the primary throttle (assuming the choke is off and the cam has pushed the secondary throttle lockout lever aside)
They can be FULLY open in sync with a WOT situation of the primary throttle but....

depending on vacuum and airflow demand of the engine, they do NOTHING because the secondary air valves up top in the airhorn have not moved. Rev a Quaddie powered engine in park or neutral
and that is what happens

And so, the secondary valves are allowing no more air in and also no more fuel because the airvalve cam has NOT picked up the secondary hanger and lifted the secondary needles out of the jets
(ppl then complain the secondarys are NOT working but they don't understand that is normal)

And all that is irrespective of the type of aircleaner fitted

A free flowing air cleaner will release a few more hp at WOT with the vehicle in motion accelerating becuase a bit more air, possibly some cooler air is allowed thru the air cleaner to the engine
and that really has nothing to do with the carb.... same thing happens with a Carter or Holley carb
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#32 Posted : Wednesday, 25 September 2024 9:52:32 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Yes, UP to 260hp in theory, but that is 260HP gross as well, maybe 175hp DIN maximum depending upon the exhaust, air cleaner, air temperature, fule quality, fan belt tension etc etc - all the crappy variables that you don't know when using DIN figures. It is badly restricting the heads, and everyone knows that the stock 308 intake valves are a performance inhibitor themselves - a decent return can be had by putting in larger intakes (aka L34 and V5H engines). The stock HT-HQ 308 intake (all the same engine bar the sump and a bit of plumbing) could make UP to 313hp. That is a huge performance inhibitor from the ADR27A intake to lose a potential 53hp. In reality it removed 34hp peak - remember there is nothing in there to disguise itself in those figures, it is a proper GM20 test with lab fuel and controlled ambient air pressure and temperature using the dyno exhaust. I bet that intake probably did as much to strangle performance as putting on a HT-HG 2BBL intake and carb would. I'm not saying the HX engine wasn't tractable, at lower rpm it probably performed well as it would have had lower air flow, but when you start looking at peak figures (be it SAE gross, net or even DIN) it will suffocate the engine. At WOT that intake would be like restricting the Quadrajet's secondaries to only open to 70%.


I think it's Net figures in fact !
VB 5.0L dual exh is 169HP DIN
HQ 5.0L dual exh is 196HP NET.

Quadrajet do not open the secondarys all the way unless it's needed ? I think it's the air type of cleaner that affects perfomance of the Secondarys from not opperating as they should ? Nothing to do with what goes on under the carby regards intake manifold would tamper with the opening.

I think it was to do with the HK 327GTS or was it the HT 350GTS That got a better breathing air filter some time after they came out ?

I know some USA cars would not open the secondarys as it should because the air filter was to restricted. I can not remember which one, a Pontiac big block V8 i think and lost 40hp.

It's the stock intake valve that can be a bit to small on the 308 red.
The stage 3 and YT heads are just a cheap way to go about adding power to a 308.
I have seen even stock exhaust valve size red and a L34 intake make real good power figures but pro ported ! not stupid ported mined you !

Look at the Torana L31 and the L34 Power figures ?

Bigger valves and huge port job do not work well, I have seen that done, to much porting of the exhaust can kill perfomance as the red V8 has good ports ? a old 302 Windsor V8 ports are crap and so is the Cleveland V8 on the 302 they are to big a port ? The 351 Cleveland 2V head can be made to perform better than the old 4V heads. look at Bathurst and the figures XY GT-HO and then the XD makes more power and the XE even more at Bathurst with 2V heads !


Those figures don't add up. VB 5.0L with dual exhaust is quoted as 125kW@4200rpm DIN which is close enough to 169hp. HQ was never quoted in DIN or Net or with exhaust. It was advertised as 240hp@4800rpm but the real SAE Gross is 226hp. You could sort of work out an estimate for HQ with dual exhaust as a DIN figure by using the earlier HZ (9.7:1) engine which was 216hp SAE Gross and subtracting the later HZ/VB 5.0L (9.4:1) 169hp DIN figure giving you a 50hp difference. Take that 50hp off the HQ's 227hp and you get 177hp DIN with dual exhaust. Not exact but in that range. It's also mean the HJ engine would be close to 200hp DIN with dual exhaust.

One thing of interest, in the original GMH dyno tests for the 308, they did do both SAE Gross (GM20) and SAE net (GM1):

HT 308:
226hp @4800rpm, 310lbft@3400rpm GM20.
160hp@3800rpm, 250lbft@2200rpm GM1.

Note that GM1 isn't just added stuff, it also runs different ambient temp. GM20 is 60F, GM1 is 100F.


HK-HT air cleaner were modded by dealers cutting holes or slots into them. In the day all it took to wake up any HK onwards with a Quadrajet (308, 327 or 350) was to dyno it, adjusting the Quadrajet so it opened the butterflies 100% - most didn't, set the timing correct and turn the air cleaner lid upside down or cut holes in it. Plus of course add dual exhaust if it wasn't there already. A HT-HG GTS350 picked up heaps just by doing that, turned it into a 14.8s quarter mile car.

L34 quoted power figures are a mixture of fact and purpose. GMH didn't build race cars. They didn't have to for GroupC, they just had to homologate the base vehicle (the LH SL/R 6cyl) with 500 units produced. The SLR5000 and the the SLR5000 were framed as variants on the original car and for any variant (or evolution of type) just produce 500 sets of parts (in some cases 250). They didn't need to build the cars, but the way to get rid of the parts was to build cars, and that is what they did with the L34. The car was not designed to be a fast road car,its parts were simply made to homologate enhanced bits that could not be changed/modified under GroupC rules. Which is why it had bigger brakes, flares, modified heads and intake, "roller" rockers, flat top Chevy style slipper pistons, stronger rods, larger fule line, better distributor setup, short tubular headers etc. It kept the stock exhaust, cam, carby and air cleaner, ran 6" rims and D70 tyres. It was never going to be a super powerful engine with that little cam, tiny dual exhaust etc. It didn't need to be. GMH simply claimed the stock power output. All you'd need to do with a stock L34 is fit a 2" twin exhaust, better cam and air cleaner and it'd pick up massive power. In March 1973 Redco ran the engines on their engine dyno. These are engines with alternator etc, and will be regular pump fuel and ambient air, not lab controlled hence why the stock engines shows 190hp and lower rpm than the GM20 test figures. These will be without an air cleaner I believe and open pipes out of the exhaust manifolds.

Stock HQ/LH 308 - 190hp @4100rpm.
Standard L34 5.0L - 260hp @ 4800rpm.
L34 engine with HP pack - 310hp @ 5500rpm. I believe this was the 780cfm vac sec Holley, Wade 140 Cam, solid lifters, roller rockers and better plugs - in terms of engine improvements.

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castellan Offline
#33 Posted : Wednesday, 25 September 2024 11:46:45 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: castellan Go to Quoted Post
Originally Posted by: HK1837 Go to Quoted Post
Yes, UP to 260hp in theory, but that is 260HP gross as well, maybe 175hp DIN maximum depending upon the exhaust, air cleaner, air temperature, fule quality, fan belt tension etc etc - all the crappy variables that you don't know when using DIN figures. It is badly restricting the heads, and everyone knows that the stock 308 intake valves are a performance inhibitor themselves - a decent return can be had by putting in larger intakes (aka L34 and V5H engines). The stock HT-HQ 308 intake (all the same engine bar the sump and a bit of plumbing) could make UP to 313hp. That is a huge performance inhibitor from the ADR27A intake to lose a potential 53hp. In reality it removed 34hp peak - remember there is nothing in there to disguise itself in those figures, it is a proper GM20 test with lab fuel and controlled ambient air pressure and temperature using the dyno exhaust. I bet that intake probably did as much to strangle performance as putting on a HT-HG 2BBL intake and carb would. I'm not saying the HX engine wasn't tractable, at lower rpm it probably performed well as it would have had lower air flow, but when you start looking at peak figures (be it SAE gross, net or even DIN) it will suffocate the engine. At WOT that intake would be like restricting the Quadrajet's secondaries to only open to 70%.


I think it's Net figures in fact !
VB 5.0L dual exh is 169HP DIN
HQ 5.0L dual exh is 196HP NET.

Quadrajet do not open the secondarys all the way unless it's needed ? I think it's the air type of cleaner that affects perfomance of the Secondarys from not opperating as they should ? Nothing to do with what goes on under the carby regards intake manifold would tamper with the opening.

I think it was to do with the HK 327GTS or was it the HT 350GTS That got a better breathing air filter some time after they came out ?

I know some USA cars would not open the secondarys as it should because the air filter was to restricted. I can not remember which one, a Pontiac big block V8 i think and lost 40hp.

It's the stock intake valve that can be a bit to small on the 308 red.
The stage 3 and YT heads are just a cheap way to go about adding power to a 308.
I have seen even stock exhaust valve size red and a L34 intake make real good power figures but pro ported ! not stupid ported mined you !

Look at the Torana L31 and the L34 Power figures ?

Bigger valves and huge port job do not work well, I have seen that done, to much porting of the exhaust can kill perfomance as the red V8 has good ports ? a old 302 Windsor V8 ports are crap and so is the Cleveland V8 on the 302 they are to big a port ? The 351 Cleveland 2V head can be made to perform better than the old 4V heads. look at Bathurst and the figures XY GT-HO and then the XD makes more power and the XE even more at Bathurst with 2V heads !


Those figures don't add up. VB 5.0L with dual exhaust is quoted as 125kW@4200rpm DIN which is close enough to 169hp. HQ was never quoted in DIN or Net or with exhaust. It was advertised as 240hp@4800rpm but the real SAE Gross is 226hp. You could sort of work out an estimate for HQ with dual exhaust as a DIN figure by using the earlier HZ (9.7:1) engine which was 216hp SAE Gross and subtracting the later HZ/VB 5.0L (9.4:1) 169hp DIN figure giving you a 50hp difference. Take that 50hp off the HQ's 227hp and you get 177hp DIN with dual exhaust. Not exact but in that range. It's also mean the HJ engine would be close to 200hp DIN with dual exhaust.

One thing of interest, in the original GMH dyno tests for the 308, they did do both SAE Gross (GM20) and SAE net (GM1):

HT 308:
226hp @4800rpm, 310lbft@3400rpm GM20.
160hp@3800rpm, 250lbft@2200rpm GM1.

Note that GM1 isn't just added stuff, it also runs different ambient temp. GM20 is 60F, GM1 is 100F.


HK-HT air cleaner were modded by dealers cutting holes or slots into them. In the day all it took to wake up any HK onwards with a Quadrajet (308, 327 or 350) was to dyno it, adjusting the Quadrajet so it opened the butterflies 100% - most didn't, set the timing correct and turn the air cleaner lid upside down or cut holes in it. Plus of course add dual exhaust if it wasn't there already. A HT-HG GTS350 picked up heaps just by doing that, turned it into a 14.8s quarter mile car.

L34 quoted power figures are a mixture of fact and purpose. GMH didn't build race cars. They didn't have to for GroupC, they just had to homologate the base vehicle (the LH SL/R 6cyl) with 500 units produced. The SLR5000 and the the SLR5000 were framed as variants on the original car and for any variant (or evolution of type) just produce 500 sets of parts (in some cases 250). They didn't need to build the cars, but the way to get rid of the parts was to build cars, and that is what they did with the L34. The car was not designed to be a fast road car,its parts were simply made to homologate enhanced bits that could not be changed/modified under GroupC rules. Which is why it had bigger brakes, flares, modified heads and intake, "roller" rockers, flat top Chevy style slipper pistons, stronger rods, larger fule line, better distributor setup, short tubular headers etc. It kept the stock exhaust, cam, carby and air cleaner, ran 6" rims and D70 tyres. It was never going to be a super powerful engine with that little cam, tiny dual exhaust etc. It didn't need to be. GMH simply claimed the stock power output. All you'd need to do with a stock L34 is fit a 2" twin exhaust, better cam and air cleaner and it'd pick up massive power. In March 1973 Redco ran the engines on their engine dyno. These are engines with alternator etc, and will be regular pump fuel and ambient air, not lab controlled hence why the stock engines shows 190hp and lower rpm than the GM20 test figures. These will be without an air cleaner I believe and open pipes out of the exhaust manifolds.

Stock HQ/LH 308 - 190hp @4100rpm.
Standard L34 5.0L - 260hp @ 4800rpm.
L34 engine with HP pack - 310hp @ 5500rpm. I believe this was the 780cfm vac sec Holley, Wade 140 Cam, solid lifters, roller rockers and better plugs - in terms of engine improvements.


See the L34 Torana is 260hp stock Cam with big Valves and more compression, the rest does not add to power. my 20/60 Cam and big valves and all i claimed must of been around 260hp.

GM20 = 16C and GM1 = 38C Say i do not believe such a diffrence at all, one must be singel exhaust.

I have worked on my dirt bikes in tuning them myself, coming from sea level and going up to places high up, i had to set retune them for them rides. cooled mornings and hot days did not make that much diffrence ever, but for the temp of the engine if it got too hot, esp air cooled you knew it directly.

With my EFI cars cooled nights did not make them go harder or much diffrence at all, why well the EFI adjust to that but a carby feed car can feel it better respond for sure with the cooled nights esp if jetted on rich side, go too lean and no ! But 16c to 38c i feel that is not cooled or hot. below 16c is getting into that range and over 38c is starting to be getting hot.
HK1837 Offline
#34 Posted : Wednesday, 25 September 2024 1:19:51 PM(UTC)
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There is nothing to believe or not, it’s fact. Those figures are off GMH’s own engine test printouts. GM20 and GM1 are GM standard controlled engine dyno tests. Both on the same dyno, no single exhaust, both use the same engine dyno exhaust. GM20 (SAE Gross) is optimum power, that is why it’s at lower air temp. No accessories driven, uses dyno water cooling. GM1 is at elevated temp and has water pump driven, no alternator from memory.

That 260hp has to be taken in comparison with the 190hp Redco got with the stock 308, they set them up the same. The opened up intake manifold will help as much to peak power as the big valves and compression. Pissy little cam will have been a big hp thief though it was retarded which help peak power. The modified distributor they used would have helped it a bit too at higher rpm.
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